Beable
Double Eagle Member
Agree. This might actually make me play tournaments. As it is, I prefer playing with buddies.
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So many divisions!!!!!!!!W
- Thread starter chris deitzel
- Start date
Agree. This might actually make me play tournaments. As it is, I prefer playing with buddies.
Brodysseus
* Ace Member *
I would love it if there was only Pro Men, Pro Women, Am Men, and Am women. Cash payouts for Pro, trophy only for Ams, and much lower entry fees for Ams.
I paid $50 to the PDGA and yet I still have to pay $35+ to play in a tournament. And that money goes to putting money in Pro players pockets or discs I really don't need or want. For me, a lower entry fee, the the thrill of competition, and an opportunity for bragging rights would make me play in a lot more tournaments. I've played sports my whole life (baseball, hockey, golf, soccer, football) and competition was always enough for me to sign up/pay for a league or tournament. I have never, and will never, understand why our "Ams" get showered with so much plastic/funny money.
This is my first year as an Association member and I'm already disillusioned with it.
I paid $50 to the PDGA and yet I still have to pay $35+ to play in a tournament. And that money goes to putting money in Pro players pockets or discs I really don't need or want. For me, a lower entry fee, the the thrill of competition, and an opportunity for bragging rights would make me play in a lot more tournaments. I've played sports my whole life (baseball, hockey, golf, soccer, football) and competition was always enough for me to sign up/pay for a league or tournament. I have never, and will never, understand why our "Ams" get showered with so much plastic/funny money.
This is my first year as an Association member and I'm already disillusioned with it.
Now you want to eliminate age and ability levels? Basically all you want is more money to take.
Thumber
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2010
- Messages
- 1,712
I don't believe am entry fees should be used to pad the pro purse. I support lower am entry fees, no player packs and trophy only. Pros should play for their own money.
I love playing for cash, whether in a tournament or casually, but I would never expect to be paid by someone who I wasn't even competing against
allinpflop
Eagle Member
Yes but when you played baseball hockey etc., the fees you paid actually went somewhere rental of facility, refs etc. In disc golf if your an am your fee goes to pay the pros. Why should you pay someone else to play?
Brodysseus
* Ace Member *
Excellent point. I totally agree.
The only way to take out payouts for Ans is to reduce entry fees. A lot of people on here are comparing DG to other sports where Ans only get trophies, and Ill provide two examples of which I'm familiar.
First is local softball leagues. They also (at least in any area Ive ever played) have skill divisions, gender divisions and age divisions. In High School, I played in AA and it was very competitive. It cost 10 dollars a year to play, and tournaments were 30 bucks PER TEAM to play in. And we got some wick trophies. We won our city tpurnamnet and the dang trophy was taller than I was. Compare that to PDGA where I pay 50 bucks a year, and, as a rec player, pay 30a60 dollars per tpurnamnet for an okay-level trophy and a disc or two in the players pack. Oh yes, Softball tournies get players packs as well, even if its usually just a tshirt and a pack of seeds.
Second ia running races. Also has divisions, not just age and gender but distance and sometimes skill levels. Again, around 10-30 dollars a race and you get a usually awesome racers pack with a shirt, water bottle and oftentimes tons of coupons and samples of sports drinks, gummies, whatever. Even the Tough Mudder that I ran in last year was 50 bucks and I got beer, a sweet headband, a shirt, coupons and unlimited sports drinks. I can guarentee all the craziness that was set up on that 14-mile course cost a heckuva lot more than renting a DG course.
Ive run softball tourneys in the Marines, organized a charity 5k in the marines and the boy scouts, and I have now atDed a disc golf event. Guess which one was the cheapest for me to put on? Yep. DISC GOLF. So drop payputs to Ans..I said before I don't have a problem with it. I am kinds stuck in the Rec division right now and its almost always trophy only anyway. Bit don't try and charge me 40 bucks for the shot at winning a trophy and then get all indignant with me and say I should be happy with the "thrill of competition"....dude, I was born at night, but not last night. I know a rip-odf when I see it and so do many others.
I propose a flat 15 bucks for Ams, all divisions. That fee alone will cover the greens fees, trophies for top 3 in each division and a players pack with a disc or shirt and coupons, stickers and/or samples from sponsors and local vendors. It would also leave you with a dollar to 5 dollars left to add to the pro purse. Flat fee for Pros would be 50 dollars. Tee sign sponsors and main sponsors could also beef up the pro purse. Then have the top 5 percent or less of pros cash out for big bucks.
See how easy that is?
First is local softball leagues. They also (at least in any area Ive ever played) have skill divisions, gender divisions and age divisions. In High School, I played in AA and it was very competitive. It cost 10 dollars a year to play, and tournaments were 30 bucks PER TEAM to play in. And we got some wick trophies. We won our city tpurnamnet and the dang trophy was taller than I was. Compare that to PDGA where I pay 50 bucks a year, and, as a rec player, pay 30a60 dollars per tpurnamnet for an okay-level trophy and a disc or two in the players pack. Oh yes, Softball tournies get players packs as well, even if its usually just a tshirt and a pack of seeds.
Second ia running races. Also has divisions, not just age and gender but distance and sometimes skill levels. Again, around 10-30 dollars a race and you get a usually awesome racers pack with a shirt, water bottle and oftentimes tons of coupons and samples of sports drinks, gummies, whatever. Even the Tough Mudder that I ran in last year was 50 bucks and I got beer, a sweet headband, a shirt, coupons and unlimited sports drinks. I can guarentee all the craziness that was set up on that 14-mile course cost a heckuva lot more than renting a DG course.
Ive run softball tourneys in the Marines, organized a charity 5k in the marines and the boy scouts, and I have now atDed a disc golf event. Guess which one was the cheapest for me to put on? Yep. DISC GOLF. So drop payputs to Ans..I said before I don't have a problem with it. I am kinds stuck in the Rec division right now and its almost always trophy only anyway. Bit don't try and charge me 40 bucks for the shot at winning a trophy and then get all indignant with me and say I should be happy with the "thrill of competition"....dude, I was born at night, but not last night. I know a rip-odf when I see it and so do many others.
I propose a flat 15 bucks for Ams, all divisions. That fee alone will cover the greens fees, trophies for top 3 in each division and a players pack with a disc or shirt and coupons, stickers and/or samples from sponsors and local vendors. It would also leave you with a dollar to 5 dollars left to add to the pro purse. Flat fee for Pros would be 50 dollars. Tee sign sponsors and main sponsors could also beef up the pro purse. Then have the top 5 percent or less of pros cash out for big bucks.
See how easy that is?
Its always easy when its an idea on a message board. Its quite another undertaking entirely when some TD tries to do it in real life, and may be out hundreds of dollars if the idea is frowned upon by his would be participants.
Future_Primitive
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2012
- Messages
- 1,773
Another great post by Thumber, one I fully support. :thmbup:
That is the funny and hypocritical part of the flawed argument. How the so called "ams" should be happy to pay their own way into a tourney and only get a trophy and do it for the thrill of competition. But the so called "pros" pay their way into the same tourney and expect to make as much money as possible, even proposing taking it from the "ams". Why do "ams" need to settle for the thrill of competition and not the Open players? :doh:
Beable
Double Eagle Member
Lot of Pittsburgh ams in this thread...and Tim who straddles the line.
Anyway, I pretty much completely disagree with you Chris. You're a great player, and it's hard for me to think that that doesn't color your judgement here. I play disc golf to have fun and I have no illusions about the fact that maybe I'll one day be an OK advanced player. I don't view my lack of killer skill in disc golf as a flaw either...it's a deliberate choice that I make about how much I practice vs what else I do in my life. Many other players will have similar choices and limitations.
I don't play many tournaments because I prefer playing more efficiently with my time. But when I do, I'm only going to play if I have a chance of being competitive, especially if it costs a bunch of money to play. So that's Int currently.
In some ways, I think the PFDS definitely caters to the Pro/Advanced side of things in tournaments. I'm not sure if this is a mistake or if it's common across other clubs or what. We don't offer Novice, so new players are forced to play against PDGA Rec players and will always be housed. Rec players are typically given the weirdest tee assignments so they're off wandering to exotic locales at the start of every round. The Ironwood doesn't even offer Rec, and it's totally deliberate. We have little course championship fundraiser tournaments for the pro purse.
Our courses are FULL of ams who don't know what the PFDS is and are completely uninterested in joining. How will collapsing divisions make it more likely for these people to ever participate with the club?
Anyway, I pretty much completely disagree with you Chris. You're a great player, and it's hard for me to think that that doesn't color your judgement here. I play disc golf to have fun and I have no illusions about the fact that maybe I'll one day be an OK advanced player. I don't view my lack of killer skill in disc golf as a flaw either...it's a deliberate choice that I make about how much I practice vs what else I do in my life. Many other players will have similar choices and limitations.
I don't play many tournaments because I prefer playing more efficiently with my time. But when I do, I'm only going to play if I have a chance of being competitive, especially if it costs a bunch of money to play. So that's Int currently.
In some ways, I think the PFDS definitely caters to the Pro/Advanced side of things in tournaments. I'm not sure if this is a mistake or if it's common across other clubs or what. We don't offer Novice, so new players are forced to play against PDGA Rec players and will always be housed. Rec players are typically given the weirdest tee assignments so they're off wandering to exotic locales at the start of every round. The Ironwood doesn't even offer Rec, and it's totally deliberate. We have little course championship fundraiser tournaments for the pro purse.
Our courses are FULL of ams who don't know what the PFDS is and are completely uninterested in joining. How will collapsing divisions make it more likely for these people to ever participate with the club?
Beable for a region specific post you are completely dead on, especially since western PA in general only has about 5 to 6 true Open level players (none rated over 980 at the moment as far as I know).
allinpflop
Eagle Member
I started out playing the local events but once I traveled outside of Pittsburgh and saw how other clubs do things I haven't played in a Pittsburgh event for 2 years. As Tim said your post is 100% correct. Good tournaments for Ams exist they just don't take place in Pittsburgh which is too bad bc we have such great courses that yield very good ratings. This thread may finally give me the motivation to do an am only event in western Pa. Then if it sucks I can't really complain can I? 
Brodysseus
* Ace Member *
I totally agree with you on this point actually. That's why I want drastically lowered entry fees. Trophies cost something and I am ok with a few dollars going to the TD to do as he/she wishes. Let me pay $10 to compete for a trophy/bragging rights/the thrill of competition instead of paying $40 to maybe win a disc or two and put $30 in a pro's pocket.
grodney
* Ace Member *
Regarding renewal rates by rating group:
In whatever year I studied it (probably 2003), I found 2222 new members from the prior year, 1395 of which renewed, for a NEW MEMBER retention rate of 63%.
It broke down by rating as:
Unrated (30% of the new members) - 41% renewal rate
Rated <900 (49% of the new members) - 68% renewal rate
Rated 900+ (21% of the new members) - 82% renewal rate
So,
30% of new members were unrated after 1 year, and 4/10 renewed.
21% of new members were rated 900+, and 8/10 renewed.
In whatever year I studied it (probably 2003), I found 2222 new members from the prior year, 1395 of which renewed, for a NEW MEMBER retention rate of 63%.
It broke down by rating as:
Unrated (30% of the new members) - 41% renewal rate
Rated <900 (49% of the new members) - 68% renewal rate
Rated 900+ (21% of the new members) - 82% renewal rate
So,
30% of new members were unrated after 1 year, and 4/10 renewed.
21% of new members were rated 900+, and 8/10 renewed.
Pittsburgh used to give Mach III' s for first placed in advanced.
Apparently you have not been at the last 2 PFDO's which had almost 1000% payout to the ams. Actually Scott Hartle has done a great job paying out the am side at the PFDO the last two years.
As for the Ironwood, that is all on Sid.
There are lots of fees people are unaware of that are part of your entry fee. $2-$3 for PDGAfees per player, not to mention the PDGA sanctioning fee and insurance. few bucks for Can-Am fees. PFDS always takes $1 fee also.
So when you are paying $30 to play INT, you are really only putting about $20 into the pot.
And like I said, I am not fully behind anything I brought up in the first post. Just wanted to hear some opinions.
I'm just sick of PRO fields that have Masters fields as large as the Open field. That was really the point of this.
Perhaps the best answer is to move the masters age up to 50?
Apparently you have not been at the last 2 PFDO's which had almost 1000% payout to the ams. Actually Scott Hartle has done a great job paying out the am side at the PFDO the last two years.
As for the Ironwood, that is all on Sid.
There are lots of fees people are unaware of that are part of your entry fee. $2-$3 for PDGAfees per player, not to mention the PDGA sanctioning fee and insurance. few bucks for Can-Am fees. PFDS always takes $1 fee also.
So when you are paying $30 to play INT, you are really only putting about $20 into the pot.
And like I said, I am not fully behind anything I brought up in the first post. Just wanted to hear some opinions.
I'm just sick of PRO fields that have Masters fields as large as the Open field. That was really the point of this.
Perhaps the best answer is to move the masters age up to 50?
I'd rather see all entry fees for ams dropped to $25 an event. Straight fee, same at all events. Get a nice disc for coming, maybe lunch. Chance at some CTP's....
And Allinflipflop, if you are going to run a PDGA event at a PFDS course, Moraine, Schenley, Deer Lakes, Knob Hill, Linbrook, the event will have to be run through the PFDS. None of these courses would allow you to do so without using the PFDS.
That being said, we would love for you to come up with a model that would be successful and run an event here, We are all for better AM events and better payouts, but in reality, we follow the PDGA's guidelines to a T.
That being said, we would love for you to come up with a model that would be successful and run an event here, We are all for better AM events and better payouts, but in reality, we follow the PDGA's guidelines to a T.
Also, Tim is nowhere near straddling the line as a pro. He is a pro. While not a top pro, he is a pro.
People often forget that we can't all be at the top.
People often forget that we can't all be at the top.
