So many divisions!!!!!!!!W

[AndyJB]

Even if you do an Ams payout, why would you ever pay more than 100%? Its nice but not really feasible le I think. I dunno.

I think another problem is the perfect payout structure. I think it should be more exclusive. Top 5 for an amateur field of 30 or less. Top ten for 30-50. Top fifteen for over 50. Same with Open. Watching 80 percent of an amateur field get paid out is kind of silly to me.

 

[mashnut]

Even if you do an Ams payout, why would you ever pay more than 100%? Its nice but not really feasible le I think. I dunno.

I think another problem is the perfect payout structure. I think it should be more exclusive. Top 5 for an amateur field of 30 or less. Top ten for 30-50. Top fifteen for over 50. Same with Open. Watching 80 percent of an amateur field get paid out is kind of silly to me.

Paying out more than 100% to ams is easy, you just lose a little of the retail to wholesale margin. That 100% reflects the retail value of prizes not the purchase price for the TD/merch guy. It's harder to pay out more than 100% to pros, you have to take money from the am side or get outside sponsorship. (Not a judgement on paying out a certain %, just a comment on the actual money side of it).

 

[chris deitzel]

Even if you do an Ams payout, why would you ever pay more than 100%? Its nice but not really feasible le I think. I dunno.

Cause people bitch if you don't.


I agree though. Why would you? I'd rather see that money go into lunch or something.\


And Mashnut is right, the more you payout the ams, the better in terms of financing for the vendor or club. It's almost easier to pay out more.

 

[AndyJB]

Why not just payout top 5 Amatuer and Pro.

All those other divisions are lame 2 me.

I wholeheartedly agree with ratings divisions, and not just because I sick and my rating ia in the toilet. Ill again use softball as an example. In my hometown of Missoula, MT where softball AND disc golf are huge, softball has the following divisions:
AA
A
B
C
D
Over 35
Over 45
Over 60
Co-Rec

In high school, I was able to play AA because I was young, in great shape and didn't have much going on during softball season than school, a part-time job at a movie theater and practice for softball. But when I got out of the Marines, I was older, had a full-time job, a family and was pretty beat up from my time in the Marines. I tried playing A and wasn't really able to contribute how I wanted to the team, so I had to move down to B. If I tried to play now, Id still be at B, maybe even C.

There was a time when my dad and I played for rival teams in AA. Now he plays in over 45 and is still competitive and has fun. He never even played in the over 3 5league, he just played AA then A, now over 45. He also plans to play over 45 for a few years before going to over 60, as long as he is physically able.

Sam thing goes for DG. If I was playing tourneys years ago, I pro a ly could have been a high-level intermediate, if not advanced. But now, with a career, family and some physical limitations, I just cant hang at that level...my 810 rating reflects that. Guys on my level still love to compete, want to compete and, if I be so bold, deserve to compete. But its not fair to ask me to go against a field of 900-990 rated players. Its not fun to finish dead last and more or less embarrass yourself...and participation in tournaments would suffer.

 

[mashnut]

Why not just payout top 5 Amatuer and Pro.

All those other divisions are lame 2 me.

If those other divisions are lame to you, don't play in them. Pretty simple solution. If you think all ams should play advanced, set the example and see how many people follow you. I still fail to see how the divisional structure hurts anyone who's in it for the competition. It only hurts the top open and top advanced guys who want everyone below them donating to their purse rather than competing for their own chances at winning something.

 

[Organicvoodoo]

Sorry but tournaments are to compete, if you can't ...play causal rounds With some money to make it fun.

Keep getting spanked, go practice and whoop their ass.

 

[AndyJB]

If those other divisions are lame to you, don't play in them. Pretty simple solution. If you think all ams should play advanced, set the example and see how many people follow you. I still fail to see how the divisional structure hurts anyone who's in it for the competition. It only hurts the top open and top advanced guys who want everyone below them donating to their purse rather than competing for their own chances at winning something.

My point exactly. Even if you're doing trophy only, having all the Am divisions doesn't raise your cost that much. Most trophy places cut screaming deals when you get a bunch of trophies made. And having one Amateur division would really lower participation rates.

 

[mashnut]

Sorry but tournaments are to compete, if you can't ...play causal rounds With some money to make it fun.

Keep getting spanked, go practice and whoop their ass.

You didn't really address my point. You feel like it's only fun to you if you can play the top division and compete against the best. More power to you, the current structure allows you to do just that. How does it affect you in the slightest if the 825 rated players are competing against each other in novice instead of donating to your prize pool? You're there for the competition, they aren't your competition anyway.

 

[AndyJB]

Sorry but tournaments are to compete, if you can't ...play causal rounds With some money to make it fun.

Keep getting spanked, go practice and whoop their ass.

Let me put a scenario out there for you. Say there's a guy who loves Disc Golf and loves to compete. This guys is 5 foot 9, 210 pounds with a full-time military career. He has a single-income family, because his wife is going for her Masters Degree. He also has a 7 year-old daughter who is active in sports and girl scouts. He gets in a round or two a week. He also has some limitations physically because of injuries during combat. Hes 29 years-old and has been playing some form of DG since he was 7-years old. He just cant hang with the young guns anymore.

Now imagine there's 10-20 guys in more or less that same situation. Say they all love to compete and are willing to pay money to play aginst each other on a good course, in an organized, structured situation with rules and trophies awarded.

You see where I'm going with this? You are saying those guys have no right to play against each other just because you're better than them. That might be a more harsh interpretation of what you meant, but do you see where that line of thought could be construed thusly?

If there's a market for it, then it can be catered to.

 

[Beable]

Let me put a scenario out there for you. Say there's a guy who loves Disc Golf and loves to compete. This guys is 5 foot 9, 210 pounds with a full-time military career. He has a single-income family, because his wife is going for her Masters Degree. He also has a 7 year-old daughter who is active in sports and girl scouts. He gets in a round or two a week. He also has some limitations physically because of injuries during combat. Hes 29 years-old and has been playing some form of DG since he was 7-years old. He just cant hang with the young guns anymore.

Now imagine there's 10-20 guys in more or less that same situation. Say they all love to compete and are willing to pay money to play aginst each other on a good course, in an organized, structured situation with rules and trophies awarded.

You see where I'm going with this? You are saying those guys have no right to play against each other just because you're better than them. That might be a more harsh interpretation of what you meant, but do you see where that line of thought could be construed thusly?

If there's a market for it, then it can be catered to.

Yep. And even though this group of 10-20 guys aren't awesome players, what if they added to their local scene by joining their local club, doing course maintenance, and helping run tournaments or leagues?

 

[ru4por]

Let me put a scenario out there for you. Say there's a guy who loves Disc Golf and loves to compete. This guys is 5 foot 9, 210 pounds with a full-time military career. He has a single-income family, because his wife is going for her Masters Degree. He also has a 7 year-old daughter who is active in sports and girl scouts. He gets in a round or two a week. He also has some limitations physically because of injuries during combat. Hes 29 years-old and has been playing some form of DG since he was 7-years old. He just cant hang with the young guns anymore.

Now imagine there's 10-20 guys in more or less that same situation. Say they all love to compete and are willing to pay money to play aginst each other on a good course, in an organized, structured situation with rules and trophies awarded.

You see where I'm going with this? You are saying those guys have no right to play against each other just because you're better than them. That might be a more harsh interpretation of what you meant, but do you see where that line of thought could be construed thusly?

If there's a market for it, then it can be catered to.

No, I think you are right on the mark. Yes, you present a very individual scenario, but there are hundreds of these. Competition means something different to everyone. I play to test myself, I like to win, but am fine finishing last.

 

[chris deitzel]

Main reason I would eliminate am payouts is due to how long it takes to pay them out and how stressful it can be when 30 people come up at once to get what they want.


Then if you give predetermined prizes you have the issue if dealing with ties. People not liking what they got.

Maybe just paying top three would be ok? But it would have to be a small payout to keep people from bagging.

 

[mashnut]

Main reason I would eliminate am payouts is due to how long it takes to pay them out and how stressful it can be when 30 people come up at once to get what they want.


Then if you give predetermined prizes you have the issue if dealing with ties. People not liking what they got.

Maybe just paying top three would be ok? But it would have to be a small payout to keep people from bagging.

Have you ever actually seen sandbagging in a PDGA event? I have maybe seen one time where a player who was experienced but didn't have a pdga number played down into a low division just to win prizes. Otherwise, every time someone has yelled bagger it was just because they were playing up and were beat by someone playing in the division their rating put them in.

 

[chris deitzel]

Estenfelder? Paul priest? Have been lots over the years.

 

[RastaFish]

I would see nothing wrong with having an amateur disc golf tournament where divisions are created after sign-ups are completed to create 2-3 balanced divisions.

Nobody else seems to have picked this comment out of the many pages of discussion on this thread, but I think this is a very good idea.

I have been playing disc golf for over 25 years and have never had a rating over 860, nor do I aspire to compete on the Open level. As a "career amateur", my personal preference would be no player pack at all and merch payouts to the top 20 or 25% of the am field. I also don't mind some of my entry fee going to the Open purse, but not all of it!

 

[chris deitzel]

Saw numerous people win the same tournament year after year as an advanced player. The ratings system has helped with that

 

[3j0hn]

As an 850ish player I'd much rather play in a division of 12 of 850-900 rated players (ideal MA3) vying for a trophy, than a division of 32 with 800-935 rated players (in practice MA2) aiming for 15th place and a share of the funny money. And certainly more fun than playing in a division of 64 with 800-970 rated players (all AMs in one division).

The most fun would be playing in a division of 72 with 850-900 rated players.

 

[esdubya]

To the OP: I share your opinion that all AMs should be paid out in players packs, not based on score in the tournament. This still raises essential money for clubs via the players packs and still raises the excitement for AMs to get cool custom stamped plastic. Even if this model is widely adapted, it doesn't necessarily mean that is the secret to a huge jump up in tournament play.

Maybe we have just reached a saturation point for tournament play, and all of this teeth gnashing about what it will take for tournament play to "really take off" is just a big ole moot point?

Tournaments are inherently limited to more serious players who have a whole weekend free to participate. Not the case for most golfers.

 

[mashnut]

Saw numerous people win the same tournament year after year as an advanced player. The ratings system has helped with that

We'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of sandbagging then. I see it as artificially making it so you can play in a lower division than you're qualified for through ratings manipulation or through not having player stats that would show you as unqualified for that lower division. People playing in the top am division can't be baggers under that definition, they're already playing in the exact division they're qualified for.

 

[wkelly42]

For example, I would like to see more tournaments that are pro only (men, women, ages 45+), ones that are for players rated under 900, others that are am only with two divisions (940+/<940), etc. The divisions should, when feasible, be based on the composition of the area where the tournament is held rather than the arbitrary 970/935/900 divisions that the PDGA has created. You get rated rounds either way, right?

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but I think this bears more attention. Have tournaments specifically geared toward certain skill levels, with prizes that are appropriate to that level, on courses and layouts that are appropriate to that level. TDs wouldn't have to track rounds at multiple courses on multiple layouts, more rec-level courses would get some tournament play, and more people would play those tournaments. PLUS -- if you're not a high enough level to play an event like The Memorial, you might be more likely to go watch it. Bigger galleries (maybe even paying a buck or two for a tournament pass to watch the best in the world play ...), bigger publicity -- maybe even a first round pro-am, where the ams can pay a little premium for the opportunity to play with a top-rated pro.

How often do you see guys like Tiger Woods or Ricky Fowler playing for a club championship at the local course? But disc golfers do it all the time.

That said, there is certainly room for tournaments where you have ams and pros playing together. My favorites are the first round singles, second round weighted doubles tournaments (which aren't sanctioned anyway), where you get teamed up with someone better than you so you have a chance to improve.