SuperWookie Form Thread

[SuperWookie]

Usually those are from opening the chest/torso too early before using the arm...like being a bit to eager to throw. Then when the arm swings to the same relative release point to where your torso is at, it's WAY right.

It'd be easiest to spot in some video why you're more likely to do that. I was also way more likely to griplock right when I drifted my plant step across the teepad to the left too much...it'd block my body and sometimes I'd overcompensate by really rotating my body too much to throw or else the disc would feel like it hooked on my fingers or some weird things like that occasionally. The more in line and balance I'm keeping my momentum into the plant, the disc feels like it goes forward on the same line with its own momentum and I sling the back edge of the disc down the target line through the hit. Way less likely to griplock now.

I wouldn't be surprised if I'm doing both of those! Stepping too far left AND opening too soon. I just feel like no matter how much I read and understand, it's not translating to actual results in my throwing I think one issue I have is that I never feel right with anything I do. I don't know if starting my swing like a pendulum is good or bad for me. I don't know if I should just be doing stand stills or working in X step throws as well? I forget half the stuff I read about on here as soon as I get outside! I'll go over my throw a few times in my head and then do it, and it's usually not at all like I just rehearsed in my mind or still has errors even if I do it sort of correct. Every time I do an X step throw, it's different and the timing is off and different than the last throw! Im constantly trying different stuff when I'm out throwing, instead of just sticking with one way of throwing every single time! Really ingrain good habits so that things start to feel normal. It's because nothing feels good, nothing feels right! So I try something else, in the hopes that IT will feel good and right. But it's probably just screwing me up even more!

And that stepping too far left problem just continues to haunt me. I can't figure out how to get out of it. I even just read some amazing stuff from SW22, yourself and others on a few different threads over the last few weeks about staying more centered and tight. Keeping your feet inline and not moving way left at the plant, etc. Lots of stuff like that. Using Simon as a perfect example on how to do it. Even getting out of the idea that my plant foot needs to go outside from the line. SW has mentioned it to others, and used photos of himself and Simon to illustrate the idea that in order to get a powerful/fast transfer of weight to your plant foot, that keeps your body in balance, you need to kick straight down the line or slightly inside!

And yet I continue to keep planting pretty far left. I think if I had to venture a guess as to why, it's because usually when I do throw a disc "good" and fairly far, it's always right of where I thought I wanted it to go. So I subconsciously step more left, so that I'm more closed, so I throw straighter. But it's obviously not a good habit and I need to get out of it. I think I might try using discs on the ground to give me actual visual cues to hit while throwing. So from a stand still, put 2 discs down right in front of my feet, to show the start position. Then another disc a little ways ahead, but straight down the intended line. That way I step right in front of it, not on or over it and LEFT of my intended target line. Same for X step throws. I need to map out the best foot placements for my steps, put the discs down, then follow them every throw! I think that will help.

Like if I stepped up to a tee shot on the golf course, i would know EXACTLY what club I'm going to hit, and how I'm going to hit it. And then I'd do it, because my body has done it a thousand times correctly before. But when I go out to throw, I do things different so often, because everything I do feels kind of off, even if the result is good. It feels so inefficient throwing a disc and like I just can't ever get into a comfortable motion. Whether that's standing still or an X step. I guess I should really concentrate on not only improving certain aspects of my throwing motion, but do the EXACT same routine for each throw. Do the exact same pre swing movements, do the exact same swing, same X step, etc every time. So that it gets ingrained and I don't even have to think. Because I still have to think about what I'm going to do every single time I throw. And that is probably a big reason I'm getting such poor overall results with little change.

I'm going out to throw and play at least one more time for both this week, so I'll get some video so I/we can break it down and see what has improved and what needs more work.

 

[SuperWookie]

Oh my god! So i just watched one of those SC videos that SW posted in someone else's form thread and I had another A HA moment! The one where he uses a huge 3' sledge hammer and I see him slowly getting the weight going back and fourth and then I see his legs pumping, trying to help him get the weight of the heavy sledge going even more! And I remembered SW talking about pumping the legs in the disc golf throw, but with NO IDEA what he was talking about. So now that I see Shawn doing this, I need to know, what about that motion and the pumping of the legs is important to the disc golf throw? Why is pumping the legs important? I don't see with my eyes, any pros "pumping" their legs in that manner per say, but just know SW has talked of it many times, and I'm always at a lose for how he's trying to relate the pumping of the legs like on a swing or swinging the sledge, to the disc golf throw.

This would help me a TON if you could explain it to me and why it's needed in the Disc golf throw. Thanks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=41&v=fasgjSMVxus

 

[sidewinder22]

They all pump on the front leg, it pumps the arm swing instead of the swing set because you are on the ground. Harder to see with some players when their posture is still collapsing even though they are trying to extend/break falling.

 

[slowplastic]

It clears the hips so your butt can counterweight the torso. It's also harder to feel with the arm/disc weight compared to a sledgehammer.

You can see the front leg extension from many pro's in this video. Eric Oakley's first throw is pretty easy to see how his knee/leg extends to help counterweight the arm with his lower body.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuEFQkxqBSc

 

[SuperWookie]

They all pump on the front leg, it pumps the arm swing instead of the swing set because you are on the ground. Harder to see with some players when their posture is still collapsing even though they are trying to extend/break falling.

Ok, I'm not quite sure I'm following. I first of all don't see them going up and down like that video SC's shows with the sledge. But I'm guessing the pumping you are talking about is MUCH more subtle and hard to see, if at all?

And can you explain what you mean by: the front leg pumps the arm swing instead of the swing set. I know you are comparing the two, pumping your legs for a disc golf throw vs on an actual swing. But I'm not following how they do it, why, and what it accomplishes? Also don't understand the last part either about collapsing and extend/break falling? Sorry

 

[SuperWookie]

It clears the hips so your butt can counterweight the torso. It's also harder to feel with the arm/disc weight compared to a sledgehammer.

You can see the front leg extension from many pro's in this video. Eric Oakley's first throw is pretty easy to see how his knee/leg extends to help counterweight the arm with his lower body.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuEFQkxqBSc

So I'm also not sure what you mean here either. What do you mean it clears the hips? That's one thing I hear you guys say, that I'm never quite so sure I know what you mean.

And are you saying in the second part, that when you extend your leg/straighten it a little UPWARDS right at the hit and after (like Tiger or Brooks do in their golf shots), that that is the pumping action?

And once again, not sure I understand counterweight of the arm or butt with the pumping action.

And is a really good thrower of the disc actively thinking about pumping UP right at the hit and into the follow through? Like they're sinking down a little at the pull (power pocket area) and then extending UP at the hit? And if so, what does this accomplish in terms of balance or mechanics and what does it accomplish for power or accuracy? Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

Like I said it's much easier to see in some players especially the hoppers and vertical swingers like Brinster and GG. Eagle pumps more in the horizontal plane which is why you see him in that reverse K finish position more than other players.

You aren't standing on a swing set during a throw, you stand on the ground so it pumps your arm swing instead of the swing set. You are using your extension muscles to break your fall from a jump/hop or even to stand upright, so you can be extending while appearing to be collapsing from the G-forces compressing you.

This guy would be pumping in the horizontal plane to the G-forces.

 

[sidewinder22]

So I'm also not sure what you mean here either. What do you mean it clears the hips? That's one thing I hear you guys say, that I'm never quite so sure I know what you mean.

And are you saying in the second part, that when you extend your leg/straighten it a little UPWARDS right at the hit and after (like Tiger or Brooks do in their golf shots), that that is the pumping action?

And once again, not sure I understand counterweight of the arm or butt with the pumping action.

And is a really good thrower of the disc actively thinking about pumping UP right at the hit and into the follow through? Like they're sinking down a little at the pull (power pocket area) and then extending UP at the hit? And if so, what does this accomplish in terms of balance or mechanics and what does it accomplish for power or accuracy? Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132388

 

[SuperWookie]

Like I said it's much easier to see in some players especially the hoppers and vertical swingers like Brinster and GG. Eagle pumps more in the horizontal plane which is why you see him in that reverse K finish position more than other players.

You aren't standing on a swing set during a throw, you stand on the ground so it pumps your arm swing instead of the swing set. You are using your extension muscles to break your fall from a jump/hop or even to stand upright, so you can be extending while appearing to be collapsing from the G-forces compressing you.

Ok, I think I understand after just re-reading and looking at tons of throws. It seems like the more vertical throwers, I can see what is going on. So GG for example gets pretty tall and on his toes in the backswing, then sinks down, in the "pull the disc to your chest" sequence of the throw, then extends his plant knee pretty hard right as he's letting go. So there is your pump in the swing. Got that now.

But now that you mention Eagle, and even Simon is similar, how do they pump horizontally? Both of them are VERY smooth and kind of creeping up to the throw with pretty bent knees the entire time, only barely straightening their front knee's at the hit. So how do they "pump" the swing horizontally? And that last part, where you talk about extending even though it appears you're collapsing, you're referring to the plant leg and knee, correct? Meaning, no matter how tall or low the player comes into the throw, they are Extending/Straightening their plant leg/knee at the hit, correct? To get that pump like action, which enables them to throw harder/faster?

 

[SuperWookie]

[/URL]

This video makes ALL sorts of sense now to me!!! And I think I can make the mental connection between Shawn doing that drill with the heavy hammer and the actual disc golf swing. Same as HUBs heavy rock/basketball underhand toss drill! I really need to find a huge rock or something like this and practice this drill over and over, really get this pump feeling down! Thanks

 

[sidewinder22]

But now that you mention Eagle, and even Simon is similar, how do they pump horizontally? Both of them are VERY smooth and kind of creeping up to the throw with pretty bent knees the entire time, only barely straightening their front knee's at the hit. So how do they "pump" the swing horizontally?

Depends on the shot, but...

 

[SuperWookie]

Depends on the shot, but...

What I was saying is that they both run/move up to the hit like a crouching Tiger or something. They both stay pretty low and with bent knees and usually don't have a big tall X step hop a la GG. And that you don't see them straightening UP as much as some other throwers. But yeah, depends on the throw. This throw is a great example of how Simon "usually" throws. Not a lot of up and down like a GG.
https://youtu.be/dORaht7U7HI?t=1490

But can you explain HOW they pump horizontally? I don't follow that at all. I'm totally understanding the vertical aspect (which to be honest from all the reading of different posts and articles seems like the best way to throw far), but not understanding the horizontal pump of Eagle you mentioned. Can you explain how they do that? Thanks

 

[sidewinder22]

What I was saying is that they both run/move up to the hit like a crouching Tiger or something. They both stay pretty low and with bent knees and usually don't have a big tall X step hop a la GG. And that you don't see them straightening UP as much as some other throwers. But yeah, depends on the throw. This throw is a great example of how Simon "usually" throws. Not a lot of up and down like a GG.
https://youtu.be/dORaht7U7HI?t=1490

But can you explain HOW they pump horizontally? I don't follow that at all. I'm totally understanding the vertical aspect (which to be honest from all the reading of different posts and articles seems like the best way to throw far), but not understanding the horizontal pump of Eagle you mentioned. Can you explain how they do that? Thanks

Having long legs helps cover distance.

To pump more horizontally than vertically your CoG has to further behind your front foot to remain in dynamic balance to the angle of your front leg. IMO it takes more effort to stay more horizontal, but in theory potentially might keep more force going into the direction of the trajectory vs vectored off, although GG doesn't seem to have any issue with that.

 

[UhhNegative]

SW, what makes GG throw so far? What is he doing that much better than some of the other top guys?

 

[sidewinder22]

SW, what makes GG throw so far? What is he doing that much better than some of the other top guys?

He definitely has the biggest rear arm counter swim move and the widest arm at release from swing center.
He uses gravity and pendulum motion and his balance/posture and weightshift so efficiently.

 

[slowplastic]

I've noticed McBeth on short shots a lot of times keep a very bent knee and kind of keep turning through the shot, rather than extending the plant leg to clear the hips and anchor himself as in his drives. Does that sound about right for what he's doing in this short upshot at 28:37, like a way of powering down by not using his body as much but still feeling like he's doing a higher % power swing?

https://youtu.be/oyCv_X57-IE?t=1717

 

[sidewinder22]

I've noticed McBeth on short shots a lot of times keep a very bent knee and kind of keep turning through the shot, rather than extending the plant leg to clear the hips and anchor himself as in his drives. Does that sound about right for what he's doing in this short upshot at 28:37, like a way of powering down by not using his body as much but still feeling like he's doing a higher % power swing?

https://youtu.be/oyCv_X57-IE?t=1717

It is basically a powered down drive as he barely turns back in the backswing which is distance control and looser grip. The sequence is the same as his drives, looks like his hips/shoulders slow/stop rotating before release, but are continuing forward which may appear like rotation.
Bent knee provides stability/balance especially when going slow and swinging forward over the front foot.

 

[sidewinder22]

SW, what makes GG throw so far? What is he doing that much better than some of the other top guys?

He definitely has the biggest rear arm counter swim move and the widest arm at release from swing center.
He uses gravity and pendulum motion and his balance/posture and weightshift so efficiently.

You can put your cursor on GG's butt and see the pressure against the glass or wall as described like textbook in these vids in the Hips thread and rear foot kicks the wall like in Butt Wipe. Crushes the can, head moves with body and disc, both shoulders rotate forward centered over front foot a la Swivel Chair Drill. His CoG and disc are diverging forward wider right and left "V" like the parting of the Red Sea.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133543

 

[SuperWookie]

So it finally happened!!! A large breakthrough throwing session and it was so great! I had already felt something a little different when I was on vacation a few weeks ago, but I didn't think much of it. The results were barely better than what had been going on for about a month.

But this time, it just started happening and I was throwing much farther and much more accurately! It was incredible. I've watched the videos now and it's funny, it doesn't look like a whole lot has changed, but the feeling and results have, so I'm super happy. And guess who I have to thank?

Slowplastic, SW22 and HUB! All of their tireless efforts and teaching is finally sinking in.

So a few of the things I decided I was going to do going forward was to stop trying all sorts of different ways to throw. I feel like I'm past needing to try every single way to throw, and need to just pick one way to throw, go with it, and see if I can get it to work. So who better to chose as a role model to copy? SW and his pendulum swing.

I've been reading soooo many threads in the Form section, and I keep seeing GG and a few other pros who hop more vertically and have more of a pendulum swing as opposed to a more horizontal swing. So I decided to try incorporating the pendulum X step Hammer throw idea that SW video shows, but with the disc. I tried it first with my hammer and it felt so perfectly IN TIME and RIGHT that I knew I had to try it with discs.

So I did yesterday and it was such a great help! I instantly was throwing my mids around 280 on avg with good ones around 300. My previous throws with mids were in the 250-280 on good throws, so a good jump in distance. Plus, they were so much more accurate, and I could more or less throw them where I wanted and on lines I wanted! I was throwing flat, low, high, hyzers, and even some slow turn anhyzers! I was FINALLY having fun and throwing these silly discs more how I thought they should be flying. My FD's that normally go 280-310 were going 310-330 almost every throw. And then near the end of my session, I busted out a few of my control drivers to see if I could get 360 or farther and I did!!! I was throwing them 360-380 when I really did well, which I've never thrown that far before. And it didn't feel that hard. I did have to concentrate harder on everything, but when I did, it didn't feel like I had to give 100% to get that distance. More like 90%.

And on my last two throws before I had to leave, I threw my Axiom Prism Insanity 390-395'!!!! It was magnificent, haha. I was so psyched and happy. All this hard work and reading forever had finally paid off!

It's funny, as soon as I started recording my throws, I started throwing a lot worse. Must be nervous or something, haha. But these throws I'm posting were probably the avg. I had quite a few more that were much better, and of course about a 1/4 of the throws were worse. I still am sometimes pulling DEAD right every so often and it just confuses me as it doesn't feel any different. I was also really thinking about aligning my whole body more to the left, to aim about 25-30* left of my intended flight path. And no sh*t, I sort of grip locked them a little more, and the disc just jumped out of my hand. It feels like I pulled it, but because of where I was aiming, the disc comes out straight and those were my farthest throws! And I just read a thread somewhere that SW I'm sure posted for me to read, that literally was just talking about this. It had a bunch of photos of pros and of course Simon, and when you really look at how far left they aim, it all makes sense now. Coming into the hit more closed, not striding left, but straight down a line (but that line is 25-30* diagonal of the intended disc path), and then throwing what feels like a pull, but is actually a great throw. It feels like the disc leverages out of my hand much harder when I threw like that. And obviously my farther throws were when I really concentrated on lining up more like that, and really gripping a little harder right when it feels like it's about to leave my hand. It was amazing.

My last throw was with a disc I NEVER throw (my champ Krait), and it was insanely powerful. I had been kind of lazy on the setup and forgot to aim that 25-30* left. So I was aiming maybe 5-10* left. And I threw it so hard and really held on to it late, and it just rocketed out of my hand, got up to about 30-40' in the air on the right side of the field and was definitely going to go just as far or farther than the Insanity throw I had just made. But it went right into a tree branch way up in the air, and that tree was only 20 yards short of the endzone. And when it hit, it CLANKED into the tree so hard I heard it like it was right next to me and it dropped down fast. It was on pace for 400 or more! So just a really really great day and so much fun, and my first real huge breakthrough! My first goal (throw a disc a full football field from FG to FG 360') I set for myself has been accomplished, and I'm quickly moving on to the next goals I had set for myself (throw my mids 360' and with accuracy and FW's 400+).

Can't thank everyone enough, especially SlowPlastic and SW. I have had a million conversations with SP and quite a few with SW as well, and it's finally starting to sink in and turn into actual results. And I think just simplifying the throwing motion and worrying about all the details is making a huge difference. I still have a long way to go, but I feel like I'm finally on my way to throwing well!

https://vimeo.com/354423159

https://vimeo.com/354423264