SuperWookie Form Thread

[slowplastic]

My problems are in the throw. I can't figure out how to keep my arm from riding up my back arm and get a more flat/around my body swing plane with a normal follow through. I'll just keep working on it and throwing more. Thanks

If you check out the last page of my thread, this post, I have finally got my swing plane on track: https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3472429&postcount=795

Basically it feels not level but out/up like the golf swing plane I was explaining to you and the "swing is not flat" SW has been talking about, that really helped me.

It's like if you have that baseball swing path on a waist high pitch that you drive slightly upward...even if you connect right on the nose of the ball you are driving it on like a 10 degree upward line drive. Compare that to a novice player that is chopping down at the ball and hitting the bottom half of it to pop it up over the infielders. Yes the ball is going upward off the bat in both cases, but from fundamentally different reasons. That upward launch angle line drive that is properly leveraged will have way more velocity on the ball, and you likely know how it feels to drive the bat away from you like this.

 

[deyo7]

I know. I'm not trying to do anything other than just move around a bit pre swing, stay loose. I'm not trying to do a drill or get correct weight transfer or anything. I can weight transfer fine when I want. Just not so good during the actual throw, haha. I can do the drills great. But their not transferring to the throwing... as always very frustrating.

My problems are in the throw. I can't figure out how to keep my arm from riding up my back arm and get a more flat/around my body swing plane with a normal follow through. I'll just keep working on it and throwing more. Thanks

Don't disregard what SW is saying here. Your throw mimics your pre-swing mistakes exactly. You aren't turning with your hips, not weight shifting correctly on either foot, and this is causing you to hug yourself during the backswing. Your swing plane issues, or any other issues you think you may have aren't going to fix themselves until you build the foundation. Watch how SW transitions in the video and do the same. If you do it pre-throw correctly, your brain will better know where it ought to be during the throw.

 

[SuperWookie]

If you check out the last page of my thread, this post, I have finally got my swing plane on track: https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3472429&postcount=795

Basically it feels not level but out/up like the golf swing plane I was explaining to you and the "swing is not flat" SW has been talking about, that really helped me.

It's like if you have that baseball swing path on a waist high pitch that you drive slightly upward...even if you connect right on the nose of the ball you are driving it on like a 10 degree upward line drive. Compare that to a novice player that is chopping down at the ball and hitting the bottom half of it to pop it up over the infielders. Yes the ball is going upward off the bat in both cases, but from fundamentally different reasons. That upward launch angle line drive that is properly leveraged will have way more velocity on the ball, and you likely know how it feels to drive the bat away from you like this.

I will check out your thread this weekend. And thank you so much for this info and the last post you made. I'm sure I'll understand it and be able to put into practice, but not right now.

I'm just drowning right now in so many different ideas and things I need to work on. It's disorienting and all consuming and I can't even sleep some nights because I'm just thinking about this stuff too much, haha. It's crazy. I need to slow down a bit, stop reading so much, stop coming on here and getting into discussions so much. There's so much great help and info, but I'm just not able to process it all. I feel like I need to pace myself and just take it slower and just try to have fun, instead of being so hardcore with my swing mechanics. Just work on 1-2 things a time when I go out and other than that, just try to have fun and play more.

And the more I watch Philo Brathwaite, the more I realize, he should be my swing idol right now, not Simon, Eagle or other freak of nature throwers. Philo makes me realize how easy and simple the throw can be and just focus on smooth and sharp, not trying to hit a homerun every throw and be the best. Not that he isn't incredible! But his throw is all about being simple and just get the disc out there. A lot like SW is trying to teach me/us.

I appreciate all the help and I'll get back to reading more later today or tomorrow and then get back to work. I appreciate all you guys and your help. You guys are great! Thanks

 

[SuperWookie]

Don't disregard what SW is saying here. Your throw mimics your pre-swing mistakes exactly. You aren't turning with your hips, not weight shifting correctly on either foot, and this is causing you to hug yourself during the backswing. Your swing plane issues, or any other issues you think you may have aren't going to fix themselves until you build the foundation. Watch how SW transitions in the video and do the same. If you do it pre-throw correctly, your brain will better know where it ought to be during the throw.

DEFINITELY not disregarding what SW is saying. But I'm literally telling you, I'm not trying to mimic good swing mechanics in my pre shot routine. I'm just trying to move around and stay loose. I do my hammer/sledge swings early in my warm up. Then move to perfect weight shift stand still/1 foot throws. But when i'm throwing for distance, I'm just moving around to stay loose. Atheletes don't do the exact swing they do for the real hit ALL THE TIME! Watch golfers or baseball players. Some of them do the exact movement and path they want, and others are just moving their arms or body around. To stay loose. You don't HAVE to mimic the exact swing you want to throw well. Some people do, others don't. I NEVER have a pre swing routine in golf that looks like my actual swing, and I am a great golfer with a great swing. Nothing to read into here. Just trying to stay loose in the hot sun.

I use SW's information ALL the time in my warm ups and one leg throws, but it's just not transitioning to the actual throw with power yet. That is WHY i'm practicing all the time... to try and get those ideas to become part of my full power throw. And it's not working yet. Hopefully this summer at some point, it will start working. Until then, I'm obviously going to keep making tons of mistakes and not doing well. I just started playing this spring.

 

[deyo7]

DEFINITELY not disregarding what SW is saying. But I'm literally telling you, I'm not trying to mimic good swing mechanics in my pre shot routine. I'm just trying to move around and stay loose. I do my hammer/sledge swings early in my warm up. Then move to perfect weight shift stand still/1 foot throws. But when i'm throwing for distance, I'm just moving around to stay loose. Atheletes don't do the exact swing they do for the real hit ALL THE TIME! Watch golfers or baseball players. Some of them do the exact movement and path they want, and others are just moving their arms or body around. To stay loose. You don't HAVE to mimic the exact swing you want to throw well. Some people do, others don't. I NEVER have a pre swing routine in golf that looks like my actual swing, and I am a great golfer with a great swing. Nothing to read into here. Just trying to stay loose in the hot sun.

I use SW's information ALL the time in my warm ups and one leg throws, but it's just not transitioning to the actual throw with power yet. That is WHY i'm practicing all the time... to try and get those ideas to become part of my full power throw. And it's not working yet. Hopefully this summer at some point, it will start working. Until then, I'm obviously going to keep making tons of mistakes and not doing well. I just started playing this spring.

No worries, just making sure you weren't disregarding because I saw the same mistakes in the throw as the pre-shot routine that he mentioned.

It takes time

 

[sidewinder22]

I know. I'm not trying to do anything other than just move around a bit pre swing, stay loose. I'm not trying to do a drill or get correct weight transfer or anything. I can weight transfer fine when I want. Just not so good during the actual throw, haha. I can do the drills great. But their not transferring to the throwing... as always very frustrating.

My problems are in the throw. I can't figure out how to keep my arm from riding up my back arm and get a more flat/around my body swing plane with a normal follow through. I'll just keep working on it and throwing more. Thanks

Your arm/disc is swinging all wrong there, even just loosening up it's all disconnected from your body, and you end up throwing like that. Your arm/disc is all curled up or riding up in that first pic of your pre-swing.

Watch McBeth and my pre-swing routine/address/finish position and do that before every single throw: https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134167

 

[SuperWookie]

Definitely don't pull back. When you swing a baseball bat it ends up following through behind you...but you're thinking about swinging through and away from you at the acceleration point. If you are centered around your spine then your shoulders will turn fully around you the correct way.

Watch the rear knee/femur, and the rear shoulder for that recoil. From what I can tell in proper throws, the rear shoulder/arm stops as the throwing arm is engaging and about to the hit point. Then the rear femur is fully recoiling as the throwing arm is straightened out, like 30 degrees past release. So basically that leg/hip recoil is starting to happen as you are beginning the hit point so you can pull the disc through and it is fully recoiling at full arm extension/release after you have got that disc out of there.

It might be different places/feel from golf and baseball because you're throwing the object and there is one arm vs. two. But concept is the same.

Yes, I shouldn't use the word "pull". The right shoulder and left shoulder should be moving equal and opposite through body rotation. The right shoulder should not act as an independent muscle/hinge.

Your arm/disc is swinging all wrong there, even just loosening up it's all disconnected from your body, and you end up throwing like that. Your arm/disc is all curled up or riding up in that first pic of your pre-swing.

Watch McBeth and my pre-swing routine/address/finish position and do that before every single throw: https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134167

Once I get back out there, I will try to remember to do this EVERY shot before I throw Thanks

 

[billyjacko]

If I were you, I'd focus all my effort in not rounding. Beto drill is always helpful with this. One piece of advice that helped me in my early days was to "get out of the way fo the disc." Watch how Eagle looks like he pulls the disc straight through his body. You want the disc to travel into the body, then rotate outward. You're arcing the disc, and that saps all leverage. Nose angle and fallow through are things that will work themselves out as you concentrate on bigger fundemental blocks of your form.

 

[SuperWookie]

If I were you, I'd focus all my effort in not rounding. Beto drill is always helpful with this. One piece of advice that helped me in my early days was to "get out of the way fo the disc." Watch how Eagle looks like he pulls the disc straight through his body. You want the disc to travel into the body, then rotate outward. You're arcing the disc, and that saps all leverage. Nose angle and fallow through are things that will work themselves out as you concentrate on bigger fundemental blocks of your form.

Yeah, I hear ya man! I'd LOVE to be able to do that. Just snap my finger and all of a sudden be able to actually throw well! If it were only that simple It's the number one problem I have, and nothing is helping. I've watched every video and probably read almost every article about how my arm is supposed to be, and why I shouldn't round. I've done the Beto drill tons of times, and still nothing is working. If it were just as simple as "Just Do It", I wouldn't be here on this forum asking for help all the time. It's the bane of my disc golf existence, haha. Until I can somehow actually do this, I'll never throw well and everything is just about meaningless. I try so hard when I'm out there practicing, but nothing is clicking yet. Hopefully I'll get there sometime soon, or I feel like I'm going to drive myself insane trying.

If I could figure out how to sling the disc out properly, all the other stuff would just be icing on the cake and would continue to add more and more distance, accuracy and consistency. I'm almost 100% sure that once I do figure out how to throw it correctly with the lag and proper upper and lower arm path, I'll be able to throw 450-500' fw's even with the rest of my form being poor. Those other things will just continue to add even more. That's one advantage I do have of being super tall and strong. I can hit/throw a ball really far, even with poor form in other parts of the throw/swing/hit. But I need to get to that point first, and then once I do, continue to work on fine tuning the details of balance, weight transfer and mechanics.

Thanks for the idea. But so far, the Beto drill isn't doing anything for me. I do it every time I go out into the field. I do them during my one foot balance throws in the beginning. Any other ideas on how to describe doing it might help, but at this point, I'm not even sure anyone can help me. I might just have to practice forever and keep trying to feel it and actually do it before it happens. I'm not sure there's any other way people CAN describe how to do it. I do appreciate all of you helping and one day hope I can help others. Thanks

 

[UhhNegative]

I've never been a fan of the Beto drill although it certainly clicks for some people. It's just strange taking the disc from no momentum to ejecting outward. The momentum of the disc coming in towards your body helps in feeling where to eject it.

Personally, I think learning a wide rail reachback is the easiest way to feel the difference between a rounded throw and an inside-out swing. Easiest way to feel a difference is to over-exaggerate it and then dial back from there (Paul McBeth quote/Seabas quote I don't remember which). If you try to throw from a wide rail reachback and the disc goes way right, you know are turning the hips/shoulders early and leaving the disc behind. It will feel different like you almost have to wait for the disc to get to the power pocket before you start trying to eject it.

This is in contrast to two handed swings where you end up with a "collapsed" front arm at the hit point (narrow upper arm angle) while in a disc golf throw the upper arm angle is much larger.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, while there is a lot of great info in the vid & thread on DGR, I'm not a big fan of the Right Pec Drill.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3184513#post3184513

 

[SuperWookie]

I've never been a fan of the Beto drill although it certainly clicks for some people. It's just strange taking the disc from no momentum to ejecting outward. The momentum of the disc coming in towards your body helps in feeling where to eject it.

Personally, I think learning a wide rail reachback is the easiest way to feel the difference between a rounded throw and an inside-out swing. Easiest way to feel a difference is to over-exaggerate it and then dial back from there (Paul McBeth quote/Seabas quote I don't remember which). If you try to throw from a wide rail reachback and the disc goes way right, you know are turning the hips/shoulders early and leaving the disc behind. It will feel different like you almost have to wait for the disc to get to the power pocket before you start trying to eject it.

This is in contrast to two handed swings where you end up with a "collapsed" front arm at the hit point (narrow upper arm angle) while in a disc golf throw the upper arm angle is much larger.

Exactly! Coming form golf and baseball (where my lead arm HAS to be close to my body) for SO long is just making this such a hard concept to pull off! You guys telling me to do it, and then me actually doing it, are two totally different worlds apart, haha.

And yeah, I do remember that quote from McBeth saying over exaggerate and then tone it back afterwards. You talking about IF I throw it right when on a wide rail is dead on! A few times in the last training session, when I did actually get and keep the disc out wide, it went pretty far, but right. And it felt a little easier than normal to get it that far. But it still felt off, and I know I'm still doing a lot of things wrong, because of where my feet and body are aligned, it shouldn't be going that far right. So that's great to hear! Thanks

And I agree with you about trying to learn the Wide Rail first. Then once I can feel how the disc is supposed to be, I can change things up if I want. My model thrower right now is going to be Philo and SW. They both have such easy simple swings with SUCH good results, and that would be much better for me right now than a more complicated type of throw. But I need to get there first. Baby steps

I noticed another guy while watching some pros play last night and LOVED this dudes throwing style! Very much like Simon, but without the MONSTER distance (still really good though). I think his name was Dustin Keegan? Beautiful throw and has that same little drop down hitch move like Simon that I feel adds more power, spin and speed to the disc? Anyways, love how they throw, but I need to work on a wide rail and keeping everything simple and fluid and timed well. I can worry about how I would love to throw later on, once I know HOW to throw, haha. Thanks for the advice! I really appreciate it :hfive:

 

[sidewinder22]

I noticed another guy while watching some pros play last night and LOVED this dudes throwing style! Very much like Simon, but without the MONSTER distance (still really good though). I think his name was Dustin Keegan? Beautiful throw and has that same little drop down hitch move like Simon that I feel adds more power, spin and speed to the disc? Anyways, love how they throw, but I need to work on a wide rail and keeping everything simple and fluid and timed well. I can worry about how I would love to throw later on, once I know HOW to throw, haha. Thanks for the advice! I really appreciate it :hfive:

There's really a lot to like about most of the top pros form and fundamentally it's all basically the same just with some slightly different idiosyncrasies and athletic ability. Dustin works on his technique a lot, he toured with McBeth one year and picked up a lot from him. I played a few rounds with Dustin and Oman and hung out all weekend, cool guys. They were in awe of my FH.

Matt Orum also has great form, learned a lot watching him:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPIFCI9O6fo#t=32m20s

 

[SuperWookie]

Yeah, while there is a lot of great info in the vid & thread on DGR, I'm not a big fan of the Right Pec Drill.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3184513#post3184513

Wow, that ZJ1000 guy sure seems friendly! And he sounds like an expert as well, haha. One leg drill will HURT your knee??? No respectable golf pro has EVER taught a single lesson using that drill hahaha

Thanks SW for the link, I'll read through all that

 

[SuperWookie]

Man, the more I read this, and really really think about it, the more I think I'm starting to understand how the disc needs to move in order to be thrown far, even from a standstill. Still not 100% how to do it, haha, but this is definitely helping me! I've read this more than a few times and it just goes in one ear and my brain doesn't truly understand it. But as time goes on, I think I'm understanding more finally.

I THINK I'm supposed to be pulling the disc into my body kind of slow and only once it's near me, THEN opening my shoulders and trying to really throw it? So It kind of hovers and doesn't move as far when it goes from the reach back to my chest? Or at least not very fast until it gets near my chest? Then I'm redirecting the disc out, down the line and eventually my arm goes around and really using the momentum of my entire body, as well as the stored up energy (rubber band feel) to really SLING it away from me? I just don't know why I can't do this yet? I know what it looks like and everyone tells me how to do it, but actually doing it is proving to be much harder than I thought. But articles like this and all the stuff from SW are slowly starting to seep into my brain and make sense, haha.

http://www.heavydisc.com/2015/04/dust-your-shoulders-off.html

 

[billyjacko]

I've never been a fan of the Beto drill although it certainly clicks for some people. It's just strange taking the disc from no momentum to ejecting outward. The momentum of the disc coming in towards your body helps in feeling where to eject it.

Personally, I think learning a wide rail reachback is the easiest way to feel the difference between a rounded throw and an inside-out swing.

I think that's the point of the Beto Drill. Not as much the throwing from nothing, but turning the shoulder back with the upper arm angle in tact, and throwing from there. Same with the closed shoulder drill. Learning to use your arm as a whip with the "hand" being the shoulder joint. The rest is collapsing and releasing which happens pretty naturally once you get the basis of how your trying to throw with your shoulders and upper arm.

I really like how Dunipace puts it "[you don't have to reach back], cus your just going to have to come in here anyway" https://youtu.be/L1PHi-zgXIY?t=28

It's a fundamental OP has to get before the rest makes sense. I think he'd benefit from learning to throw upshots like Brad Williams does a Nova before trying to throw like Eagle/Simon throwing PD2's. https://youtu.be/h74jibJn2Yk?t=114

 

[SuperWookie]

I've done the Beto drill quite a few times when I was first starting out back in the Spring. But like I said, it never did anything for me, or teach me anything. I think I was too new to throw and all it did was make me throw short and left. I'll have to try it some more when I go out and see if it starts to make more sense now that I've been throwing for a little while and understanding things a little better. Or it still might not be useful. But it's worth a try.

And what about this drill from BW's? Does anyone here that really knows what their talking about think this is correct? The closed shoulder and wrist SNAP drill? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LffYBb1vQjQ&t=10s

It seems two fold to my mind. One the one hand, it does seem like it could add distance because of the wrist snapping through the hit. But on the other hand, I can't perceive this motion in any pro players throwing motions? And that could be because they don't do it, or because it happens so fast, that it's super hard to catch it on film?

Mostly from what I've read though, it seems like I should NOT be trying to actively snap my wrist from curled way around the disc to forward? That the wrist should more or less be neutral and get a slight stretch back and then forward from momentum (act like a stiff rubber band), not from the player actively TRYING to snap their wrist? Seems like it might add more distance but also make the throw wildly inconsistent?

 

[RandyC]

I've done the Beto drill quite a few times when I was first starting out back in the Spring. But like I said, it never did anything for me, or teach me anything. I think I was too new to throw and all it did was make me throw short and left. I'll have to try it some more when I go out and see if it starts to make more sense now that I've been throwing for a little while and understanding things a little better. Or it still might not be useful. But it's worth a try.

And what about this drill from BW's? Does anyone here that really knows what their talking about think this is correct? The closed shoulder and wrist SNAP drill? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LffYBb1vQjQ&t=10s

It seems two fold to my mind. One the one hand, it does seem like it could add distance because of the wrist snapping through the hit. But on the other hand, I can't perceive this motion in any pro players throwing motions? And that could be because they don't do it, or because it happens so fast, that it's super hard to catch it on film?

Mostly from what I've read though, it seems like I should NOT be trying to actively snap my wrist from curled way around the disc to forward? That the wrist should more or less be neutral and get a slight stretch back and then forward from momentum (act like a stiff rubber band), not from the player actively TRYING to snap their wrist? Seems like it might add more distance but also make the throw wildly inconsistent?

I think everyone who throws far snaps/whips their wrist passively. Tip of the whip like Dave Dunipace says. That is also Beto and Closed Shoulder drill in a nutshell imo. Move your body so that your wrist whips the disc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_iLAQnOsRY

 

[SuperWookie]

So not a whole lot of progress to report or show since last post. I've only been out in the field like 3 times maybe and played two rounds since I was last on here. It's been way too hot to play or practice most days.

The only thing is that I'm getting a little more consistency in my stand still throws and the mid range distance has become much more repeatable in the higher distance range. I was sporadically throwing anywhere from 230-280 and all over the place with most of my mids, now almost every single throw is pretty good accuracy and always 250-280. FW's are always 280-320. So that's good I guess. And it's not quite as hard to get that distance. I'm starting to feel a little bit of the delayed whip feeling. The opposite side of the disc feeling heavier and whipping around at the last second. And it shows in the throws. Most have good trajectory and more spin when they land. Certain slightly lower shots skipping forward when they hit.

But on X step throws nothing has got better. I even shortened up to just a slow 3 step (right foot first sideways, then X step left behind, the plant right). Still all over the place in every which way. Some throws go dead pull right and into the ground at 200', while every once and awhile I do some things right and I get it out around 340 or a tad farther occasionally. But I feel it's nowhere near as repeatable as the stand still throws and not that much farther. It also always feels off. No matter how hard I try, I always feel like I'm leaning back to far when doing an X step vs a Stand Still throw. I can't get my weight onto my toes and my hips/butt forward out of the X step. I can only do that moderatly well on the stand still throws. And those 340 or farther throws are with my Fairway discs, so speed 7's and a 9, not mids. My goals for this year are mids 300 and fairly accurate. FW's 360 and fairly accurate.

Then I'm having a really annoying issue creep into my throw lately that I can't figure out and need help with, that seems to be coinciding with my ability to throw better and with more whip. DEAD PULL YANKS! Like really bad! 50-100' right of where I'm aiming and I almost lost a few discs on the course from these horrific throws. And it happens in the field at least 25% of the time or more. Normal everything, not trying to give it 100% and BAM! DEAD YANK RIGHT. Some of them super high and into the trees lining the side of the football field. Other times just a straight low pull that turns into a roller within 100-200'. NO IDEA how this is happening, especially when it's happening around and in between other really good throws. Maybe I'm not extending fully out from the power pocket? I have been getting better at holding the disc later into my chest and from the inside. So maybe on certain throws, I'm doing that well, but then not extending out and away from my body at the hit? Not sure. I'll try to get video of my throws in the next week or so.

Any ideas on why a jump up in form and distance is also coinciding with horrific yanks? Thanks

 

[slowplastic]

Usually those are from opening the chest/torso too early before using the arm...like being a bit to eager to throw. Then when the arm swings to the same relative release point to where your torso is at, it's WAY right.

It'd be easiest to spot in some video why you're more likely to do that. I was also way more likely to griplock right when I drifted my plant step across the teepad to the left too much...it'd block my body and sometimes I'd overcompensate by really rotating my body too much to throw or else the disc would feel like it hooked on my fingers or some weird things like that occasionally. The more in line and balance I'm keeping my momentum into the plant, the disc feels like it goes forward on the same line with its own momentum and I sling the back edge of the disc down the target line through the hit. Way less likely to griplock now.