SuperWookie Form Thread

[SuperWookie]

I did have a possible epiphany last night though while waiting for a commercial to pass while watching the Tour de France. I constantly am gripping and holding a disc while I watch TV, just to try and get more and more comfortable with the disc and grips. And sometimes I get up and swing around, etc. So last night, I was thinking of something I read somewhere about how the arm or body needs to be like a towel or whip cracking. So I started slow mo moving the disc through a throw and instead of continuing forward the whole way through the throw like normal, I kind of did this whip like motion with my arm/hand/wrist, very much like whipping a towel. And it got me wondering if I'm supposed to be doing that? Not just moving my arm forward the whole time, but right at the point of the hit, to kind of stop my arm/body and the wrist will sort of whip/eject the disc forward? Because I did this in slow mo with a disc and just kind of let my arm feel dead and whip it around with my body, and a few times of doing this then produced that feeling! Like I would pull back just a bit with all my weight right when the disc was out in front, near the hit point. And what would happen is the disc would pivot in my grip and my grip would be directly aiming at where my arm was just swinging too. So my thumb would be pointing down the throw line. Kind of like this:

And it felt like my shift in weight backwards at the last second produced this whip like feeling and like all that momentum of my body and loose arm moving forward, that then gets pulled back at the last second would RIP or PULL the disc out of my hand. But then it makes no sense, because I see EVERYONE moving forward constantly and there is no hitting INTO a brace and stopping. So I don't even know how it would work. Does any of this sound even remotely correct? Or is it way off base? It's just something I accidentally felt while messing around and wanted to explore the idea with everyone. But it definitely got me thinking. This video at 0:53 secs shows what I'm talking about:
https://youtu.be/SGGi7AqEvrY?t=53

Is anyone able to respond to this idea/thought process? Thanks

 

[Mocheez]

Sounds like you are on the right track with keeping your arm loose but I don't think you should actively pull your momentum backwards. Look at Will's right shoulder... is it moving towards the target or away from the target at release?

You just need to keep your arm muscles loose, but hand/disc should be taut/connected through the shoulder. Shoulder will be pulling back and give you the crack of the whip you are looking for.

 

[SuperWookie]

Sounds like you are on the right track with keeping your arm loose but I don't think you should actively pull your momentum backwards. Look at Will's right shoulder... is it moving towards the target or away from the target at release?

You just need to keep your arm muscles loose, but hand/disc should be taut/connected through the shoulder. Shoulder will be pulling back and give you the crack of the whip you are looking for.

Ok, so this last part about my shoulder makes sense and is something that sounds VERY important, that I've never read anywhere. I keep watching everyone throwing, but what "looks" like everyone is doing, is just continually moving through the shot and all the way around, with NO recoil, like you would have in a tennis shot, golf shot, baseball hit, slapshot, etc. But you are saying there IS one? That makes SOOO much more sense now. Hallelujah :clap:

I keep thinking you're supposed to move through the hit, and yet, when I hit a baseball or a tennis ball, there is this split second right when you are about to hit the ball, that your body braces and stops moving forward for a split second and it slings or whips your arm forward to then smash the ball. And your arm/s then swing hard through the shot. So I think all this talk of keeping your arm loose and not using your arm is what is throwing me off and confusing the h*ll out of me. You DO use your arm, but in conjunction with your body. That makes WAY more sense!

Then the forward momentum is what keeps your swing going around? Correct? Just like in all other racquet or bat sports? But in reality, the hit is done at that point. Some people just follow through more than others. Take a look at Mark McGwire's home runs and you'll see what I'm referring too. He had a pretty stunted/abbreviated follow through that more or less stopped right after he hit the ball, and it was only his forward momentum that kept his swing going past the contact point. And yet he was one of the longest HR hitters of all time. Dude POUNDED the ball. I used to do this at my friends batting practice sometimes and I could hit the ball just as hard/far as if I followed through all the way around. Same with my golf swing. I remember watching Tiger and his stinger shots and so of course I started using it and same thing happened. I could hit the ball just as far with a short/abbreviated follow through as a full follow through. So this idea of this HUGE follow through around and making sure to get all the way around is what has been throwing me off. And the fact that this is the first time I'm reading that there IS a recoil and that you stop forward momentum to then let your arm slingshot forward just makes all sorts of sense now! Plus the fact that all other sports where you swing, there is a recoil right at the hit, that whips the ball/puck/whatever. Not a continuous motion through it.

Screenshots like this make SOOO much more sense now, and what is actually happening, is matching up with what I thought was happening. Even though I was reading and seeing differently.

Thank you VERY much for this info, this will help me a TON moving forward.

 

[slowplastic]

Is anyone able to respond to this idea/thought process? Thanks

Definitely don't pull back. When you swing a baseball bat it ends up following through behind you...but you're thinking about swinging through and away from you at the acceleration point. If you are centered around your spine then your shoulders will turn fully around you the correct way.

 

[slowplastic]

Plus the fact that all other sports where you swing, there is a recoil right at the hit, that whips the ball/puck/whatever. Not a continuous motion through it.

Screenshots like this make SOOO much more sense now, and what is actually happening, is matching up with what I thought was happening. Even though I was reading and seeing differently.

Watch the rear knee/femur, and the rear shoulder for that recoil. From what I can tell in proper throws, the rear shoulder/arm stops as the throwing arm is engaging and about to the hit point. Then the rear femur is fully recoiling as the throwing arm is straightened out, like 30 degrees past release. So basically that leg/hip recoil is starting to happen as you are beginning the hit point so you can pull the disc through and it is fully recoiling at full arm extension/release after you have got that disc out of there.

It might be different places/feel from golf and baseball because you're throwing the object and there is one arm vs. two. But concept is the same.

 

[Mocheez]

Definitely don't pull back. When you swing a baseball bat it ends up following through behind you...but you're thinking about swinging through and away from you at the acceleration point. If you are centered around your spine then your shoulders will turn fully around you the correct way.

Yes, I shouldn't use the word "pull". The right shoulder and left shoulder should be moving equal and opposite through body rotation. The right shoulder should not act as an independent muscle/hinge.

 

[SuperWookie]

Definitely don't pull back. When you swing a baseball bat it ends up following through behind you...but you're thinking about swinging through and away from you at the acceleration point. If you are centered around your spine then your shoulders will turn fully around you the correct way.

Watch the rear knee/femur, and the rear shoulder for that recoil. From what I can tell in proper throws, the rear shoulder/arm stops as the throwing arm is engaging and about to the hit point. Then the rear femur is fully recoiling as the throwing arm is straightened out, like 30 degrees past release. So basically that leg/hip recoil is starting to happen as you are beginning the hit point so you can pull the disc through and it is fully recoiling at full arm extension/release after you have got that disc out of there.

It might be different places/feel from golf and baseball because you're throwing the object and there is one arm vs. two. But concept is the same.

Yes, I shouldn't use the word "pull". The right shoulder and left shoulder should be moving equal and opposite through body rotation. The right shoulder should not act as an independent muscle/hinge.

Ok, now I'm getting a little confused again, haha. I agree mostly with the "bat ends up following through behind you, but you're thinking about swinging through and away." But there is DEFINITELY a forward stopping of momentum in all stick/bat/racquet sports at the hit. That is WHAT creates the power and whip. All that energy is moving forward and building up to a moment, The follow through is only a byproduct, not the goal.

Lets just use the tennis or baseball hit as they are easy to talk about. During a baseball hit, my weight starts moving forward towards the ball, but right before I hit the ball, my plant foot really slams my momentum into the ground, and that forward momentum of my body comes to a stop, and it WHIPS my shoulders and arms through the hitting zone. The ball gets smashed and ONLY AFTER the ball has been hit, do the arms then continue forward. Same in tennis. Setup the shot with proper footwork, get behind the shot, then step into it with your weight, but right before you hit it, your leg plants hard into the ground and your body stops, allowing your arm to whip through the shot. And same thing, your follow through could be short, medium or all the way around, but that part is irrelevant. The hit is the most important part. So I'm just trying to understand why it's so important to get all the way around in a Disc Golf throw, if it's not important in other sports?

But I'm understanding more and more how the hit has to be a weight transfer into a braced front side that is playing tug of war and letting the arm then whip through after that movement is complete, not during it. I'll get there eventually. The more we discuss this stuff and the more I read others points of view, the more it helps me to understand. So thanks

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[SuperWookie]

Yeah! That video of Jr ESPECIALLY is what I'm talking about! He's moving forward, forward, swing starts, then BAM! His front leg stiffens and digs in, bracing for the hit and then he power bombs that ball and actually recoils back a little, even though his hands keep moving forward! I could watch Jr videos all day everyday and never get bored. I miss that guy SOOO much! Him and Freddie Couples were my idols in sports for the most perfect smooth swings of all time!

I guess I just don't see it in the disc golf throws. They all look like their going through the hit, never recoiling and then around. It doesn't look like they are slamming into their plant foot/leg, stopping their forward momentum and sling shoting their arms forward. I guess Eagle is the one guy that does look more like that idea to me, and that Jarvis guy a bit, but almost everyone else, to my eyes, looks like they just keep on going forward and then around with no recoil. So that was throwing me off big time! It must just be less visible or not visible because it's just your arm with that puny little disc coming out, not a 35oz bat getting whipped around at 70-80 mph!!! JUUUUST a bit more momentum in that scenario, haha. Same with a golf club or tennis racquet. But same idea it seems like?

Starting to understand more. Starting to put some of these pieces together. I'm busting out my old racquet bag and going to just start whaling on my backhand and get that grooved again as practice for the Disc. And another thing I'm really going to focus on more as well to hopefully get my arm issues getting better is to just keep my arm straight the whole time. No flex at the elbow at all. And just let the momentum bend it. And pump my arm more to get the gravity doing more work for me. I need to get to a point where not only can I feel how to throw it far with ease, but have it so grooved I don't even have to think about it anymore. Then I can move on to more advanced ideas. The arm thing is just killing me... and my rotator cuff for sure, haha. I've actually been doing even more rotator cuff exercises at the gym the last few months because of the Disc golf. But man, I really did a number on my shoulder last time out and need a week or so off. No bueno

PS, that Jarvis dude is smoove as h*ll! He almost throws a disc like Griffey hits! That's pretty amazing. I have that video bookmarked to reference and every time I've watched that to see what he's doing, it's just silly how good he is and how in balance he is! Its very impressive!

 

[sidewinder22]

I keep thinking you're supposed to move through the hit, and yet, when I hit a baseball or a tennis ball, there is this split second right when you are about to hit the ball, that your body braces and stops moving forward for a split second and it slings or whips your arm forward to then smash the ball. And your arm/s then swing hard through the shot. So I think all this talk of keeping your arm loose and not using your arm is what is throwing me off and confusing the h*ll out of me. You DO use your arm, but in conjunction with your body. That makes WAY more sense!

Then the forward momentum is what keeps your swing going around? Correct? Just like in all other racquet or bat sports? But in reality, the hit is done at that point. Some people just follow through more than others. Take a look at Mark McGwire's home runs and you'll see what I'm referring too. He had a pretty stunted/abbreviated follow through that more or less stopped right after he hit the ball, and it was only his forward momentum that kept his swing going past the contact point. And yet he was one of the longest HR hitters of all time. Dude POUNDED the ball. I used to do this at my friends batting practice sometimes and I could hit the ball just as hard/far as if I followed through all the way around. Same with my golf swing. I remember watching Tiger and his stinger shots and so of course I started using it and same thing happened. I could hit the ball just as far with a short/abbreviated follow through as a full follow through. So this idea of this HUGE follow through around and making sure to get all the way around is what has been throwing me off. And the fact that this is the first time I'm reading that there IS a recoil and that you stop forward momentum to then let your arm slingshot forward just makes all sorts of sense now! Plus the fact that all other sports where you swing, there is a recoil right at the hit, that whips the ball/puck/whatever. Not a continuous motion through it.

The forward momentum of the swing pulls you thru into the finish.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UqQZylULio&t=446s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW-vWZgnNSk#t=2m38s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2eWfwpahfk#t=1m40s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLo97jXn5Wo&t=50s

 

[billyjacko]

I know from experience you can strong arm out to 375'. Once you learn to throw from your balance, weight shift, lower body, it becomes so much easier. You activate the upper body for sure, bit you have fundemental blocks to build. More videos and critique will help you than all this chatter.

 

[sidewinder22]

I know from experience you can strong arm out to 375'. Once you learn to throw from your balance, weight shift, lower body, it becomes so much easier. You activate the upper body for sure, bit you have fundemental blocks to build. More videos and critique will help you than all this chatter.

Bruce Lee - "The highest technique you can achieve is to have no technique."

 

[SuperWookie]

So went out after work in the super hot sun to get some throwing in, and some video. It went alright. I finally am starting to get a sort of long, fluid, heavier arm feel and a lot less strong arming. I think tweaking my rotator cuff muscles a few days ago actually helped me. I couldn't strong arm it if I wanted too or I'd really hurt my shoulder.

Was mostly trying to just focus on keeping my arm dead and whip it through, which happened a little. Had some throws in the 350-380 range, but most were in the 300-320. Not good. All sorts of other things going wrong. All the same stupid stuff.

And now, for some reason, my rear foot had this super weird thing going on where my toes lifted off the ground while I was pushing forward?!?! Soooo weird and have no idea how I was doing that. Just noticed it watching the video. Looks bizarre and obviously not helping anything.

Same problem of the disc riding up my back arm and coming from high on my shoulder down, then bouncing right around the hit to back up, and the disc coming out nose up.

Same stunted low follow through that I have no idea how to correct. I tried some shots where I literally kept the disc lower and threw to a higher point and around and the discs just went 150' maybe, super high and WAY left.

The ONLY thing that was decent tonight was the accuracy was much better than normal. Had a few throws that were my farthest ever. And I got my arm to feel a little more loose and fluid, and not so tight. As well as letting the gravity of my body movement whip my arm around. But still have all sorts of horrible things going on, that no matter HOW hard I try, no matter how much I read and understand, it isn't getting any better and have no idea how to fix them. Not even going to ask, as you'll just post the same videos you've posted a thousand times before I guess I just have to be resigned to the fact that this is not going to go well, it's going to take forever, and there will be little to no progress from week to week.

I did play a fun little game in the beginning though I think I'll start doing more often. Instead of just throwing my putters to the middle of the field, I decided to throw from the goal posts, to a group of trees about 180-210' out. Then from there to the other goal post. Then to the bleachers, etc. It was fun trying to get it as close as possible with just 3 shots, and also try to throw the disc there on different angles. Hyzer's, flat, Anhyzers, low, higher, etc. It was fun and made the session a tiny bit more enjoyable.

Password for videos: discgolf

[url]https://vimeo.com/347844575[/URL]
https://vimeo.com/347844675
https://vimeo.com/347844789

 

[sidewinder22]

Says pages doesn't exist.

 

[SuperWookie]

Fixed it, sorry

 

[UhhNegative]

Yeah that's what I have issue with: coming off the rear heel instead of toes. The times I've fixed that momentarily I was throwing mids to 300'+ with what felt like little effort.

 

[sidewinder22]

Pre shot swings - your arm is swinging back and forth without your body turning or heels moving/weight shifting. Hugging the crap out of yourself in the backswing.

Watch my heels and shifting totally from one leg to the other leg and how everything flows.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu4CzVnITlo#t=5m56s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-KVWfUkQ3s#t=3m14s

 

[slowplastic]

Note how in those pics SW showed, he is one the leading leg for each movement. 100% on left leg for the backswing, then 100% right leg for the forward swing. You are on both feet and balanced between both feet in both of those images.

I'll think about your swing plane a bit to see if I can feel what you're doing, but what was working for me recently was to try to copy my golf swing and backswing back and forth until it felt like a lefty swing...don't use an interlocking grip. When the pendulum feels ok moving to your right side, then switch your hands so that you are swinging like a lefty golf forward swing...the difference is in how you anticipate the swing and are completely to your right leg vs. a righty backswing where it's setting you up to move to your left.

Basically, feel that smooth pendulum that is upward and out/away from you to your right side. Feel how it works as a lefty golfer. Then change that to a one handed swing, I did it by gripping partway up a baseball bat. But really try to feel this golf swing arc that you know and trust in your righty swing, how it goes up and away from you. Doing this helped me find the arc and then once I found it I could counterweight it with my hips/body through the swing.

 

[SuperWookie]

Yeah that's what I have issue with: coming off the rear heel instead of toes. The times I've fixed that momentarily I was throwing mids to 300'+ with what felt like little effort.

Yeah, I don't know why or where this is coming from all of a sudden. I've never done this! I'm always either on my toes, or at the worst, flat footed for a second. Never on my heels with my toes coming up. Sooo strange. It may just be because I was super hot, tired, and really exhausted after a long week at work. Plus it was the first time doing the 3 step X step. I was trying the longer 4 step last week and didn't have this problem. I'll get that sorted out next time I go out for sure. Thanks, and good luck to you as well. You're making good progress and throwing well! 300' with a ROC is impressive!

 

[SuperWookie]

Pre shot swings - your arm is swinging back and forth without your body turning or heels moving/weight shifting. Hugging the crap out of yourself in the backswing.

Watch my heels and shifting totally from one leg to the other leg and how everything flows.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu4CzVnITlo#t=5m56s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-KVWfUkQ3s#t=3m14s

I know. I'm not trying to do anything other than just move around a bit pre swing, stay loose. I'm not trying to do a drill or get correct weight transfer or anything. I can weight transfer fine when I want. Just not so good during the actual throw, haha. I can do the drills great. But their not transferring to the throwing... as always very frustrating.

My problems are in the throw. I can't figure out how to keep my arm from riding up my back arm and get a more flat/around my body swing plane with a normal follow through. I'll just keep working on it and throwing more. Thanks