Why the Beato drill is so important.

[bfowler]

One thing I found while doing field work yesterday was how much you feet position during your throw dictate your throw. I've seen SW22 tell many people to open or close their stance.

Many time I will pull a little right. I adjusted yesterday by closing my stance a bit and that seemed to have magically fixed it.

We're all trying to snap our hip from facing away from closed (with our right buttcheek to the target) to open (our right hip facing the target). This pulls the shoulders around so that your right shoulder is facing the target. That pulls your arm into the right peck position.

When my feet are perfectly inline (like I'm standing on a white line) with my right hip and right shoulder pointing towards the target my natural rotation for getting me into the above position ends up with my shoulders pointing just off to the right where I end up throwing.

Now, I closed my stance a little so that on that straight white line on the ground my right heel is just to the left of the line and my left toe is touching the left side of the line. So my stance is more staggered. I do my natural hip rotation and my shoulder end up pointing right at the basket and that's where my throw ends up.

We've all heard about when throwing hyzers to take a step (run-up) from the back left corner of the teepad to the front right and reversed for annys. This is done because it naturally puts your feet and thus body into a position so that you end up throwing more right or left. I've found this also works on a smaller scale. If I want a long anny with a short arc I'll take one step towards the right corner of the tee box. I'm not going corner to corner but am still going on that angle, it's just a lot less.

It's much, much, much easier to alter your footwork slightly and throw the same than it is to OAT your wrist or try to lean your body forward to backwards on a straight line to get different lines. The footwork will naturally put your body in the correct position.

I can't tell you how many times I've been throwing an anny or hyzer down a wooded line only to pull or push it too close to the trees on either side. This fixes that because it feels like I'm throwing the same and naturally ever time.

 

[Krinkncrank]

I also find a slightly closed stance helps a lot.

 

[Mocheez]

Another point is that of the angle which you suggest the rear foot be placed - splayed out towards the rearwards direction somewhat - this seems to inhibit hip twist.

The left foot starts out at a slightly rearword angle while the right foot comes forward but doesn't stay that way. After the right foot hits the ground and at full reach back, you should start turning your left knee inwards. This will cause your left heel to come up off the ground... as the left knee completes its inward turn, the left heel should end up pointing towards the sky.

 

[bfowler]

I also find a slightly closed stance helps a lot.

So, you're saying I just could have said that. :doh:

 

[spinachd]

oops first video was wrong one - see this instead - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9w-d7hRHV8&index=4&list=UUOWfFb1ebXBTigAPg702aeg ignore the other one....

I was on DGR back in the day and I've always pulled close to my chest. I'm glad this post showed up, however, because it made me realize that I sometimes drop my elbow and this is when I miss my line to the right.

BTW your spatially confined office videos with are quite conceptually helpful. Maybe more so than a video with full throws. I especially liked where you show that even when you think your pulling straight your body is in the way.

Now how about you fix my putting!

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

And I'll toss in my $0.02 - don't let your heal on your back foot touch the ground.



Watch Barry's segment - and you'll see it in the best form of the pros. By keeping up on the ball of your back foot - you have easier pivoting hips.

I'm going to see if I can piece together a concept I've been thinking about:

The arm is a double pendulum (ignoring wrist for the moment).

The arm is attached to our torso.

Or at least it should be, barring a machete accident, but I digress.

A double pendulum:

While you're watching that animation, you see that sometimes, the lower arm of the pendulum really gets cracked and spins around. The force on the lower arm can increase greatly.

The why of it is not all that important and has to do with angles and relationship of centers of mass, and is way more physics than I can understand or explain.

But you see that there's a condition where in a double pendulum, that lower arm (our forearm) gets turbo boosted.

That condition is a tiny angle between the upper arm and the lower arm. I believe that's why it is important to pull tighter to your chest. You're decreasing the angle in that double pendulum, knowing that you'll get a bigger boost.

It's an easy thing to feel doing rhatton's dead arm drill. Just swing your arm not bent, generating a constant back and forth momentum from your feet, back and forth. There's not a hit point, with the arm straight and limp, unless you really crack it from your shoulder.

Now, add some bend to the arm and feel the increase in a hit point.

Now, when your arm is in the backswing, close the angle to varying degrees and see what happens to the hit point as you really close it tight.

I was trying to figure out an answer to the "Is there any mechanical advantage to the double pendulum to starting the arc from the center of the chest vs. the right pec?"

SW22 pointed out that you lose some leverage on the disc at the right pec, so most players will take what they can get from center chest. But I think the concept of closing the forearm to upper arm angle is really key to maximizing the natural effect of that mechanism, so that you won't have to pull as hard around the disc.

And THAT is why sometimes you get a huge drive that feels utterly effortless.

 

[anborn]

probably thread of the year on dgcr, imo.

 

[Mocheez]

And I'll toss in my $0.02 - don't let your heal on your back foot touch the ground.



Watch Barry's segment - and you'll see it in the best form of the pros. By keeping up on the ball of your back foot - you have easier pivoting hips.

I'm going to see if I can piece together a concept I've been thinking about:

The arm is a double pendulum (ignoring wrist for the moment).

The arm is attached to our torso.

Or at least it should be, barring a machete accident, but I digress.

A double pendulum:

While you're watching that animation, you see that sometimes, the lower arm of the pendulum really gets cracked and spins around. The force on the lower arm can increase greatly.

The why of it is not all that important and has to do with angles and relationship of centers of mass, and is way more physics than I can understand or explain.

But you see that there's a condition where in a double pendulum, that lower arm (our forearm) gets turbo boosted.

That condition is a tiny angle between the upper arm and the lower arm. I believe that's why it is important to pull tighter to your chest. You're decreasing the angle in that double pendulum, knowing that you'll get a bigger boost.

It's an easy thing to feel doing rhatton's dead arm drill. Just swing your arm not bent, generating a constant back and forth momentum from your feet, back and forth. There's not a hit point, with the arm straight and limp, unless you really crack it from your shoulder.
Now, add some bend to the arm and feel the increase in a hit point.

Now, when your arm is in the backswing, close the angle to varying degrees and see what happens to the hit point as you really close it tight.

I was trying to figure out an answer to the "Is there any mechanical advantage to the double pendulum to starting the arc from the center of the chest vs. the right pec?"

SW22 pointed out that you lose some leverage on the disc at the right pec, so most players will take what they can get from center chest. But I think the concept of closing the forearm to upper arm angle is really key to maximizing the natural effect of that mechanism, so that you won't have to pull as hard around the disc.

And THAT is why sometimes you get a huge drive that feels utterly effortless.

I don't think the whip factor should be the primary focus. If you whip your forearm out too fast, you won't be able to trigger the shoulder abduction and wrist extension during the hit. The forearm will have negative acceleration when the elbow is near full extension (to prevent injury) which means that it is contributing negatively to the acceleration that you want as the disc pivots.

Brad Walker's closed shoulder drill emphasizes this. There should be a quick chop of the elbow followed by a quick burst of rotation (abduction) in your shoulder and spring of the wrist. If you chop too hard, your forearm will fling too fast and you won't have time to trigger the right shoulder rotation.

Also, the bolded part above is exactly how the swedish technique works. The elbow stays fixed but yet they are still able to generate just as much distance as with the bent elbow technique. Shoulder abduction in the last .05 seconds generates 95% of the power in both techniques.

 

[luckless_pedestrian]

Shoulder abduction in the last .05 seconds generates 95% of the power in both techniques.

Oh, come on! I thought I was getting it and you hit me with shoulder abduction? What the hell???

I mean, please elaborate...

 

[Mocheez]

It's just the rotation of your shoulder that causes your arm to move to the right. The opposite is adduction.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

It's just the rotation of your shoulder that causes your arm to move to the right. The opposite is adduction.

I don't think they are 2 different animals. The shoulders are the biggest part of the double pendulum - because they're the base of the whole mechanism.



the thing I'm driving at (see what I did there?) is that like Bradley was talking about in the original closed shoulder drill video - these systems are all incorporated. Finding those moments where arc 1 sync's up w/ arc 2 and down the chain, that's how the forces multiply when it comes time to pull around the nose with all that shoulder force.

I dunno, I am thinking about this stuff probably way too much.... :wall:

 

[Krinkncrank]

Here's a question I have about the double pendulum movement that HUB is talking about:

At the moment when the disc is pulled up to the chest, at what point of the swing/rotation should the throwing elbow be?

It seems to me that the more in towards your right pec (for RHBH) you pull, the more likely it is that the elbow is going to be significantly rotated towards the target, leaving you both an acute angle between upper arm and lower arm, and with essentially a tricep extension to drive the disc out. However, if the disc comes in more towards the left pec or sternum, then the elbow still has lots of room to rotate and drive towards the target, which should kinetically link to the lower arm and wrist. At the moment the disc reaches the chest the angle between upper and lower arm will be around 90˚ or so. This seems like the more powerful arrangement.

Am I seeing this right?

 

[Krinkncrank]

I've been hoping a video of Lizotte driving would show up. Watched it a few times. Interesting to note:

-he pre-curls his wrist up to the moment he reaches back, which he does plyometrically and then he loses the wrist curl
-he pulls in to around the mid-chest
-he has a strongly closed stance

 

[spinachd]

I'm not sure what you guys are talking about with open and closed stance. What part of a throw are you calling a stance?

 

[Aim For The Chains]

how you align with the target throwing area-- not facing directly at the target when releasing.

 

[sidewinder22]

Here's a question I have about the double pendulum movement that HUB is talking about:

At the moment when the disc is pulled up to the chest, at what point of the swing/rotation should the throwing elbow be?

It seems to me that the more in towards your right pec (for RHBH) you pull, the more likely it is that the elbow is going to be significantly rotated towards the target, leaving you both an acute angle between upper arm and lower arm, and with essentially a tricep extension to drive the disc out. However, if the disc comes in more towards the left pec or sternum, then the elbow still has lots of room to rotate and drive towards the target, which should kinetically link to the lower arm and wrist. At the moment the disc reaches the chest the angle between upper and lower arm will be around 90˚ or so. This seems like the more powerful arrangement.

Am I seeing this right?

I'm not sure how to exactly answer that. I don't focus at all on elbow rotation, it's all driving the elbow forward. The shoulder then rotates the elbow out of the way as the lower arm is being released forward. I think the key in the amount of bend is that you don't want to lose tautness of the arm/disc weight.

I relate power and leverage to a bench press. The position of my arm at release is almost identical to the top of a bench press or at least it feels that way. Wider grip is often more powerful positioning and requires less elbow movement. You really don't bend the elbow much more than 90 degrees at the bottom of a bench press and your forearms should be perpendicular to the bar and ground. At the top of the press your arms should form more a wide "V" when the elbow is extended(never locked out). If your grip is too narrow, the elbows form a very acute angle at the bottom of the press and your forearm are not perpendicular to the bar and ground unless you drop the bar toward your hips, but then either way you can't really engage the pecs for power. At the top of the press your whole arm is perpendicular to the bar and ground and is great for holding the weight static up there, but it's terrible for dynamic power.

 

[Krinkncrank]

I had a similar problem when I started down that path. What corrected it for me was to move the shoulders after the hips/weight shift. Think about letting the weight shift initiate the hip twist; and then letting the hip twist initiate the shoulder rotation. Cause and effect.

Once I separated the hips from the shoulders, I began feeling the connection between the "pull" and the "throw." Should feel the inertia of the disc the entire time when done right.

Thanks for the feedback. I haven't felt any such inertia from the disc, so I must be off the correct form.

 

[Krinkncrank]

I'm not sure how to exactly answer that. I don't focus at all on elbow rotation, it's all driving the elbow forward. The shoulder then rotates the elbow out of the way as the lower arm is being released forward. I think the key in the amount of bend is that you don't want to lose tautness of the arm/disc weight.

I relate power and leverage to a bench press. The position of my arm at release is almost identical to the top of a bench press or at least it feels that way. Wider grip is often more powerful positioning and requires less elbow movement. You really don't bend the elbow much more than 90 degrees at the bottom of a bench press and your forearms should be perpendicular to the bar and ground. At the top of the press your arms should form more a wide "V" when the elbow is extended(never locked out). If your grip is too narrow, the elbows form a very acute angle at the bottom of the press and your forearm are not perpendicular to the bar and ground unless you drop the bar toward your hips, but then either way you can't really engage the pecs for power. At the top of the press your whole arm is perpendicular to the bar and ground and is great for holding the weight static up there, but it's terrible for dynamic power.

Thanks SW. I will concentrate next time in field work to drive the elbow out and pull the arm around with my shoulder instead of thinking about rotating the elbow.

 

[Toro71]

oops

 

[spinachd]

how you align with the target throwing area-- not facing directly at the target when releasing.

So you are "closed" when you are facing the target at the end of your pull, and that is better?