[Gateway] Wizard Weights

[LastPlace]

The wizard is my favorite putter that I keep buying more of, so I'm am looking to hopefully get a solid answer here. My understanding is that putters in general can have a max weight of 175g, correct? But according to the PDGA, the max weight wizard can be 174.3g due to the disc diameter (See Link: http://www.pdga.com/documents/pdga-approved-discs).

Additionally, I emailed Gateway and they told me that 175g is the max weight. Aren't they lieing to me according to the PDGA website.

So why do they do sell advertised 175g Wizards if technically they are illegal?

Also I see max weight wizards advertised all the time and the advertised weight is 175g. Shouldn't the advertised max weight be 174g disc?

Side note: I may be looking into this too much, but I just want to make sure I'm playing with legal discs. I bought one 175g wizard before I realized and now I been buying 172-173 wizards to account for the incorrect marking on the disc (the 175g I got really weighs in at like 177). I'm okay with the weights not being exactly what is says on the disc. I understand it's not a perfect process. I just want confirmation that a 175g marked disc is legal or not?

Thanks in advance to anyone who may respond to my craziness.

 

[Three Putt]

The answer is sales. The max weight Aviars are sold in is 175g. Avairs were the gold standard in putters for 20ish years. People are conditioned to want 175g putters. Gateway marks them 175 so they sell better. The PDGA has never done anything about it, so there you go.

Technically a 175 Wizard might be illegal, but no one has been called out for using one yet. I doubt you will be the first.

 

[dwindacatcher]

As three Putt said, yes a 175 is illegal. But I've never heard of someone busting out a scale on hole 3.

 

[Dan Ensor]

You mean my 200g Wizard isn't legal?

 

[ODRB]

But is it ok to pull a couple blades of grass and toss them to see what the wind is doing?

 

[allenhoop]

The weight restrictions depends on the disc diameter. 8.3 g/cm or something along those lines.

Have you measured a Wizard? The diameter is actually ~21.2-21.3 cm, not 21.0, meaning that the max weight should be 175.9g - 176.8g.

Don't worry about it.

 

[Three Putt]

The weight restrictions depends on the disc diameter. 8.3 g/cm or something along those lines.

Have you measured a Wizard? The diameter is actually ~21.2-21.3 cm, not 21.0, meaning that the max weight should be 175.9g - 176.8g.

Don't worry about it.

I don't really mean to harp, but that sounds like a classic Davey Mac answer explaining why something that clearly is the case is not the case. The legal diameter is what the PDGA says it is. Gateway doesn't get to submit the diameter, it's the result of testing. Davey Mac can resubmit the Wizard if he wants the legal diameter changed, but if he doesn't it is what the list says it is. Just telling me it is something different doesn't cut it. If GDS thinks the list is wrong, they should do something about it. Instead they just sell discs marked at a weight that is listed as illegal. If I was running a business and the disc in question was my bread and butter meal ticket, I'd be doing something about it.

Having said that, I do agree that it is nothing to worry about. I throw 175g Wizards. Nobody is doing anything about it despite what the list says, so as a GDS customer I'm not worried at all. You should be getting that fixed if the PDGA measurement is an error, though.

 

[disctildeath]

Isn't there like a 2 gram discrepancy allowed? I thought I remembered hearing that somewhere, and don't think Gateway is the only company that marks stuff over 175 as 175, they ALL do it.

 

[rd.bittle]

You mean my 200g Wizard isn't legal?

Shhhhhhh

 

[allenhoop]

If the Wizard is guilty of this, is it not reasonable to make everyone check all the diameters and weights of their discs against the 8.3 g/cm PDGA specification. Thermoplastic injection molding is not a perfect process. Every run of disc will have some sort of margin of error with regards to the dimensions and weight. To me it seems almost economically impossible for a disc manufacturing company to produce a "perfect" disc every time. The idea that discs must fit exactly into the specifications found on the approved disc list is impossible to enforce, without reasonable limitations for margin of error.

So then it's on the companies to send them new discs to be re-approved at those dimensions? Is it worth the time, when the mold has already been approved, for us to send in a Wizard that comes out at 21.1 cm, and 21.2 cm, so that they all can be re-examined and re-approved, even though we already know the answer to that? Maybe if it were a new mold, but it isn't. Wouldn't every company then just produce the smallest possible disc out of the mold, as well as the largest possible disc, and send them in for approval?

So the issue here is really that there is no enforcement on these rules. Should we be making PDGA tournament directors check in everyone's discs before events? How much time and effort would be required to do this? Every disc, at every NT or major event? Seems like a big task to add onto a tournament director's long list of responsibilities.

I do think that the most prestigious tournaments should have some sort of disc check in. The USDGC, World Championships, or DGWT championship would be good places to start this trend.

Just FYI, due to this post, I am pushing Dave to send in an XL Wizard and an XS Wizard for approval, so that we do have the margin of error needed to ease people's minds. So I guess you could say you won this one.

 

[ODRB]

This was a terribly dumb conversation.

 

[Three Putt]

If the Wizard is guilty of this, is it not reasonable to make everyone check all the diameters and weights of their discs against the 8.3 g/cm PDGA specification. Thermoplastic injection molding is not a perfect process. Every run of disc will have some sort of margin of error with regards to the dimensions and weight. To me it seems almost economically impossible for a disc manufacturing company to produce a "perfect" disc every time. The idea that discs must fit exactly into the specifications found on the approved disc list is impossible to enforce, without reasonable limitations for margin of error.

So then it's on the companies to send them new discs to be re-approved at those dimensions? Is it worth the time, when the mold has already been approved, for us to send in a Wizard that comes out at 21.1 cm, and 21.2 cm, so that they all can be re-examined and re-approved, even though we already know the answer to that? Maybe if it were a new mold, but it isn't. Wouldn't every company then just produce the smallest possible disc out of the mold, as well as the largest possible disc, and send them in for approval?

So the issue here is really that there is no enforcement on these rules. Should we be making PDGA tournament directors check in everyone's discs before events? How much time and effort would be required to do this? Every disc, at every NT or major event? Seems like a big task to add onto a tournament director's long list of responsibilities.

I do think that the most prestigious tournaments should have some sort of disc check in. The USDGC, World Championships, or DGWT championship would be good places to start this trend.

Just FYI, due to this post, I am pushing Dave to send in an XL Wizard and an XS Wizard for approval, so that we do have the margin of error needed to ease people's minds. So I guess you could say you won this one.

Look, the PDGA approved disc list shows a diameter and a maximum legal weight for the Wizard. It's the same diameter and max legal weight that the Challenger has. What does Discraft do? They sell 174g Challengers. That is their legal max weight. What does Gateway do? They sell 175g Wizards. One company takes the PDGA rules seriously, the other does not. You can make excuses, but the rules are pretty simple and Gateway is not following them.

Do I care? No. I throw 175g Wizards. It's a non-issue to me. I don't think there should be a disc check or anything like that at big events. That to me is like drug testing welfare recipients; spending a lot of time and money to address a problem that no one has any proof exists. All I am saying is there is an approved disc list which clearly lists the max legal weight of a golf disc GDS makes, and they willfully sell discs stamped as PDGA approved marked a gram heavier than that weight. That's just a fact. Sorry, but it is. Thermoplastic injection molding and lax rules enforcement is not forcing anyone at GDS to write "175" on those discs. That is a business decision to mark a disc heavier than its legal max weight to help sales. Like I've already said multiple times, I don't really care and buy them anyway. Almost everybody on this board probably agrees with that. That doesn't change what it is.

For the record, if they were marked 174g and that was as heavy as they went, I'd still be buying Wizards. It's a great disc. This thread? Not so much.

 

[ODRB]

Calling the factory today. Asking for 10 new 174 Wizards free of charge. I'll be happy to send back 10 thrashed and illegal 175s in exchange.

 

[notroman]

If I were them I'd just send you back your 175g wizards with 174g penned on the underside. There's a margin of error allowed on disc weights and the difference between 174.3g and 175g is well within that allowed margin. Unless there are officials with calibrated scales at every event, this is not something that can be realistically enforced.

 

[allenhoop]

This isn't a dumb conversation. The dumb part is that Gateway get's called out for this all the time, but I don't have anyone calling me out for throwing my 177+g marked 175g 'like a boss' Star Boss.

We're not making excuses.

The point I'm trying to make is that these rules are in place for getting a mold approved and having a legal range for disc weight. It doesn't take into consideration the variability that comes with TIM. Beyond that, it's up to each individual tournament to enforce them as they see fit. Think of the chaos that would ensue if discs were checked in at all PDGA events.

It's not that I don't think there should be rules, It's just that the rules should be reasonable. If the current rules were strictly enforced, it would be industry-changing. I doubt there would be 10+ PDGA disc manufacturers, and I bet prices would be significantly higher.

All of this is heresay, but I am definitely enjoying the banter.

 

[ranger]

No, this might be dumb.

 

[ODRB]

No, this might be dumb.

Might is pretty generous. This conversation is super super dumb. Almost as dumb as the "is it technically illegal to pull a few tips off of blades of grass to see what the wind is doing?" dumb.

Maybe Gateway ought to pen them all at 174 no matter what they really weigh. Maybe not. Who effing cares.
Innova does it -- I have "175" Sexton FBs from 170 to 178, for one example. Discraft put a "173-174" sticker on a Zone I have that weighs 179. Which BS approach is better?

 

[Three Putt]

There are two different issues here. One is the accuracy of the marked weight of discs, which is impossible to verify given that the same disc can weigh different weights at different times. The reason I was given for that is that plastic can absorb water, enough to make a disc weigh a couple of grams off. So you get a disc marked 175 and it weighs 177. I don't think any manufacturer can 100% guarantee weights that close. It's when you get a 182g disc marked 175g that can be an issue, but there is no real proof that anything like that is widespread.

The issue with Gateway is marking a disc that is only PDGA approved to 174g at 175g. That's just thumbing your nose at the PDGA rules. In the big picture, the difference between 174g and 175g is in that wiggle room for disc weights anyway. Nobody is getting a competitive advantage from it, and if the same exact discs were marked at 174g nobody would notice. But they mark them 175g. That technically violates the PDGA rule. If somebody wants to make a stink over it (which I certainly would not becasue all my putters will be illegal) then there could be another G9i mess with the PDGA. That would be on Gateway. They choose to mark them 175g. They could do like Discraft and mark them 174g, but they don't.

 

[LastPlace]

Thanks everyone for your responses. Again, I love wizards and keep buying more, I guess my issue is that Gateway purposely labels discs at 175, when legally they can't be more than 174. And again I don't expect the process to be perfect or discs to weigh exactly what's written on them. I also don't care what other people use. I wouldn't care if someone used a 180g putter. I'm just weird and I'm going to try and make sure the discs I'm using are legal or at least an attempt was made to make them legal.

I also enjoyed the comments about how this conversation was dumb proceeded by long responses haha. I knew it was a nitpicky topic in the first place.

Again thanks all for the responses. Wizard putters for life!

 

[Dan Ensor]

Where is it that it says a disc marked as an illegal weight is illegal?