[Gateway] Wizard Weights

[allenhoop]

Again, you can't just say that your discs are actually legal. If the specifications of your molds don't fit the standards that have been established for your discs to be approved for sanctioned play anymore, then you need to have those specifications updated.

This is independent of how many other companies violate the policy. If they jump off a bridge, are you going to follow? Don't want to be the example? Fix your approval specs so you can't be the example anymore. No one complained more about the G9i debacle than I did (still my favorite blend of plastic you guys have created). Go back and read the topic if you don't believe me. That doesn't mean bupkis because your discs were too stiff for tourney play, no matter how many other companies are doing the same thing. Stop looking in other peoples' bowls and fix your own.

We are fixing it.

To further the discussion:

Does no one think the PDGA manufacturing standards need to be upgraded to fit what actually happens with plastics? To me, the way it is set up now, it seems to be a money grab.

Did you know every disc is supposed to have PDGA Approved engraved on the disc or in the artwork? So if you have a tournament stamped disc that doesn't say PDGA approved on it, technically you are violating the standards.

From the technical standards PDF:
"It is also highly recommended that all approved discs carry the words "PDGA Approved" either engraved in the mold and/or as part of the disc art or a permanent sticker. Manufacturers are also encouraged to add the model and approval identification to all previously-approved discs when it is feasible to do so. All approved discs manufactured after January 1, 2012 must comply with these standards. "

 

[DanJon]

If you guys are really that upset about other companies skirting the rules, send discs you believe to be illegal to the PDGA and lodge a complaint.

My point was that it's hypocritical for a rep from one company to call out another company for illegal discs, when they themselves are producing illegal discs.

I highly doubt anything would happen if I sent a formal complaint about Innova's too stiff plastic.

You seriously think the PDGA is going to make INNOVA stop producing KC Pro plastic?

 

[ODRB]

...bupkis...

^ only worthwhile thing in this whole thread. I love my Wizards.

 

[iacas]

But they mark them 175g. That technically violates the PDGA rule.

They could mark them at 204g or 14 pounds and it wouldn't "violate the PDGA rule." The rule is how much the disc weighs, not what is written in Sharpie on the bottom.

Where is it that it says a disc marked as an illegal weight is illegal?

It doesn't. You're right about that part.

I am not trying to say Gateway isn't guilty of mismarking, but it seems to me like we get called out more than any other company for any mistakes. I just wanted to give an example of how we are not the only ones that have made this particular mistake, and that it is all too common across the board.

The other companies aren't in this discussion, though…

And I have a few hundred Wizards. I weigh them all and play only those that show up as 174 or less. The too-heavy ones (including my 290g "training" disc, of course!) I use for practice only.

To others (not you, necessarily): if there's no competitive advantage to using a 175 or 176 over a 174, why do you insist on using the heavier ones? Why knowingly break the rules for "no competitive advantage"?

Other than that, what's wrong with a slightly overweight disc other than that the pdf from the PDGA says it's illegal? Is there anything that gives a competitive advantage? Is it a danger to other players? I think the whole idea of what the standards should be and how they are applied is what really should be discussed.

The rules are the rules. It's not just a PDF, it's the rules of the sport you choose to play.

Does no one think the PDGA manufacturing standards need to be upgraded to fit what actually happens with plastics? To me, the way it is set up now, it seems to be a money grab.

How is it a money grab? If Gateway wasn't so interested in pushing right to the edge of the boundaries, knowing that disc weight can fluctuate… they could try to make discs at 171g or something, and then if a few came out heavy they'd still be legal.

You don't think that if the weight was set to 8.35g/cm or there was an allowable 1% tolerance, that Gateway wouldn't just adjust up to that and continue to produce heavier-than-legal discs?

Did you know every disc is supposed to have PDGA Approved engraved on the disc or in the artwork?

What you quoted says "highly recommended" not "required."

I'm glad Dave's sending discs in to have the mold width revisited, but this probably should have been done years ago.

 

[allenhoop]

How is it a money grab? If Gateway wasn't so interested in pushing right to the edge of the boundaries, knowing that disc weight can fluctuate… they could try to make discs at 171g or something, and then if a few came out heavy they'd still be legal.

You don't think that if the weight was set to 8.35g/cm or there was an allowable 1% tolerance, that Gateway wouldn't just adjust up to that and continue to produce heavier-than-legal discs?

I think it's a money grab because why should I have to take the time to send them another disc from an already approved mold, when I can take a ruler (or calipers if I have them) then weigh it and easily calculate the weight to determine if it's legal or not. This could easily be done at tournament check-ins (at major events) where it actually matters.

Why not just have molds approved and then if a disc is in question they can measure it on site? Why should the manufacturers have to pay $300 everytime they come up with a new plastic that doesn't shrink as much and ends up being slightly larger in diameter than the one they already sent in and paid $300 for, from the same mold. My point is that it reduces the ability for manufacturers to tinker with their plastic blends. Just approve the mold, and set the standard at 8.35g/cm, and everything will be fine.

Manufacturers don't want to produce heavier discs -- players want them. Heavier discs are essentially more money to manufacturers because they use more plastic.

 

[tbird888]

Gateway's been producing and making discs over the approved specs for years. Are you telling me the certified discs were the only ones that shrink that much? Either certify the mold with the least shrinking plastic so you can mold discs above the currently approved weight or be the example whenever this topic's discussed.

Who cares what a niche group of disc nerds in a niche sport thinks? It's not like people are being disqualified at sanctioned events for throwing overweight Wizards.

 

[tylerc]

Yall need to get out and frolf

Thanks for the entertaining read

 

[allenhoop]

Gateway's been producing and making discs over the approved specs for years. Are you telling me the certified discs were the only ones that shrink that much? Either certify the mold with the least shrinking plastic so you can mold discs above the currently approved weight or be the example whenever this topic's discussed.

Who cares what a niche group of disc nerds in a niche sport thinks? It's not like people are being disqualified at sanctioned events for throwing overweight Wizards.

There was pretty much only one blend of plastic when the Wizard was certified.

It matters to the future of our sport. Should we allow the governing body to profit off of technicalities or should we make the rules smart enough to allow for variability in manufacturing?

 

[tbird888]

Perhaps you guys could figure out a blend of plastic that shrinks very little when it cools and set a bunch aside. Then when you have a new mold certified, run it in that plastic. Work the system, don't cry about it. $300 to make 175g Wizards legal is a small price to pay, considering it's probably the mold that's keeping the bills paid.

 

[Broken Shoulder]

I think it's a money grab because why should I have to take the time to send them another disc from an already approved mold, when I can take a ruler (or calipers if I have them) then weigh it and easily calculate the weight to determine if it's legal or not. This could easily be done at tournament check-ins (at major events) where it actually matters.

Why not just have molds approved and then if a disc is in question they can measure it on site? Why should the manufacturers have to pay $300 everytime they come up with a new plastic that doesn't shrink as much and ends up being slightly larger in diameter than the one they already sent in and paid $300 for, from the same mold. My point is that it reduces the ability for manufacturers to tinker with their plastic blends. Just approve the mold, and set the standard at 8.35g/cm, and everything will be fine.

Manufacturers don't want to produce heavier discs -- players want them. Heavier discs are essentially more money to manufacturers because they use more plastic.

If you just write 174 on them instead of 175 this whole deal is a non-issue.

You're really starting to sound whiney and defensive, especially considering that the company has been blatantly ignoring the requirements for...what was it....13 or 14 years?

Gateway chooses to be in this line of work. $300 for approvals/spec configurations is a cost of business.

 

[allenhoop]

If you just write 174 on them instead of 175 this whole deal is a non-issue.

You're really starting to sound whiney and defensive, especially considering that the company has been blatantly ignoring the requirements for...what was it....13 or 14 years?

Gateway chooses to be in this line of work. $300 for approvals/spec configurations is a cost of business.

It should have been taken care of, no doubt. I am not saying that is not the case. It will be updated next time the PDGA gets around to making a new version their approved disc list. I just think the rules could be a little more in favor of innovation. It really has been a non-issue. I'm just trying to bring up discussion for improving the rules for all parties, making it easier for the PDGA and for disc manufacturers.

 

[Dan Ensor]

Perhaps you guys could figure out a blend of plastic that shrinks very little when it cools and set a bunch aside. Then when you have a new mold certified, run it in that plastic. Work the system, don't cry about it. $300 to make 175g Wizards legal is a small price to pay, considering it's probably the mold that's keeping the bills paid.

You want a bunch of discs that are the right pDGA weight, but the wrong density?

This seems like a solution in search of a problem. (The whole thread.)

 

[tbird888]

With molding inconsistencies being what they are with disc golf equipment, as a manufacturer, why not set yourself up with the best chance to keep your products legal when it comes to the one spec everyone pays attention to?

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Im more concerned about mold tweaks which are not being sent for re-approval.

Thats an old topic though... Pnnovdga.

 

[tbird888]

Not the introduction of new molds with a variant on an existing name that's already approved?

 

[Aim For The Chains]

D. all of the above.

 

[iacas]

I think it's a money grab because why should I have to take the time to send them another disc from an already approved mold, when I can take a ruler (or calipers if I have them) then weigh it and easily calculate the weight to determine if it's legal or not. This could easily be done at tournament check-ins (at major events) where it actually matters.

Allen, c'mon man… $300 is a money grab?

Why should the PDGA constantly be checking discs with calipers? The USGA doesn't constantly weigh or measure golf balls. They trust that the manufacturers have the integrity (and the desire to preserve their business) that they won't start making 1.66" golf balls that weigh 1.64 ounces…

To call it a money grab (for $300!) entirely ignores the fact that Gateway - again, I have a few hundred Wizards - has been doing things outside of the rules and regulations for over a decade.

Why not just have molds approved and then if a disc is in question they can measure it on site? Why should the manufacturers have to pay $300 everytime they come up with a new plastic that doesn't shrink as much and ends up being slightly larger in diameter than the one they already sent in and paid $300 for, from the same mold.

Why not just send the disc in the least shrinking plastic and be done with it?

My point is that it reduces the ability for manufacturers to tinker with their plastic blends. Just approve the mold, and set the standard at 8.35g/cm, and everything will be fine.

As I said above, if the standard became 8.35g/cm, does anyone have any doubt that Gateway would begin selling a bunch of 176g or 177g Wizards…?

Manufacturers don't want to produce heavier discs -- players want them. Heavier discs are essentially more money to manufacturers because they use more plastic.

Now you're worried about an extra gram or two of plastic? Guess what: take out that extra gram or two, label the Wizards 173 and 174, and these threads won't pop up from time to time.

Plus, not all plastics cost the same. I could probably pretty easily find 180g of a plastic blend that costs less than 160g of some other plastic blend.

 

[allenhoop]

$300 is definitely a money grab when you factor in how much effort it takes to do what they are doing. $300 to measure and weigh a disc and type in some numbers? Get out of here.

The PDGA wouldn't be checking the discs, the tournament directors would if they felt it was necessary for their event.

They sent in a Wizard from the first run of them. Also, at the time, I'm sure they didn't think to attempt to send in the largest one. It's a learning process.

We will and do sell 176g and 177g Wizards... as x-outs. If people want them we will sell them.

Yes plastics have a range of costs and molecular weights, it doesn't change the fact that you use more per disc for heavier discs. When you think about how many discs manufacturers are producing, and the fact that a small company buying in small quantities has to pay a premium for plastic, compared to a bigger company with the resources to buy larger quantities and pay much less, it really does make a difference.

 

[iacas]

$300 is definitely a money grab when you factor in how much effort it takes to do what they are doing. $300 to measure and weigh a disc and type in some numbers? Get out of here.

:sigh: Suffice to say, we're going to disagree here. To be a money grab it has to be a large sum of money. $300 is not. It's not like you have to submit a disc in every color, or every plastic blend, etc. You have to submit one disc, ever. It's Gateway's "fault" that they sent a smaller one in and haven't re-sent one in for over a decade.

The PDGA wouldn't be checking the discs, the tournament directors would if they felt it was necessary for their event.

Yeah, like they're going to have the time to do that, or want to put up with the headaches…

They sent in a Wizard from the first run of them. Also, at the time, I'm sure they didn't think to attempt to send in the largest one. It's a learning process.

They've had a lot of time to learn…

We will and do sell 176g and 177g Wizards... as x-outs. If people want them we will sell them.

You completely missed the point.

Yes plastics have a range of costs and molecular weights, it doesn't change the fact that you use more per disc for heavier discs.

You don't seem to understand that you're now arguing against yourself, right?

People's issues with Gateway are that they sell discs that are illegal, and flaunt it in a way. So… save the 1 or 2g of plastic that's sooooo expensive AND sell legal weight Wizards.

When you think about how many discs manufacturers are producing, and the fact that a small company buying in small quantities has to pay a premium for plastic, compared to a bigger company with the resources to buy larger quantities and pay much less, it really does make a difference.

Then make lighter weight discs that are also legal!

 

[Snap-it]

$300 is definitely a money grab when you factor in how much effort it takes to do what they are doing. $300 to measure and weigh a disc and type in some numbers? Get out of here.

The PDGA wouldn't be checking the discs, the tournament directors would if they felt it was necessary for their event.

They sent in a Wizard from the first run of them. Also, at the time, I'm sure they didn't think to attempt to send in the largest one. It's a learning process.

We will and do sell 176g and 177g Wizards... as x-outs. If people want them we will sell them.

Yes plastics have a range of costs and molecular weights, it doesn't change the fact that you use more per disc for heavier discs. When you think about how many discs manufacturers are producing, and the fact that a small company buying in small quantities has to pay a premium for plastic, compared to a bigger company with the resources to buy larger quantities and pay much less, it really does make a difference.

Sounds like the DMV