Wysoki vs. McBeth

[corin_brown]

Don't sleep on Paul based on body type, the guy is actually really dang athletic. I don't much believe in body type being more than a "with all other things being equal" factor.

I actually think McBeth & Rick have similar body types. Rick's taller but it's not like Manute Bol & Muggsey Bogues.

 

[joecoin]

I actually think McBeth & Rick have similar body types. Rick's taller but it's not like Manute Bol & Muggsey Bogues.

More like Spud Webb.

 

[DinosaurThunder]

This should be one of the best battles at a World Championships. Why did it have to land on the year KS is hosting? Don't get me wrong, the work DD and the city of Emporia do for this sport/GBO is great. I just wish the courses were more geographically appealing and challenging for us spectators. Can we go back to Milo for this battle?

 

[corin_brown]

18 putt was a clear miss. McBeth's putter barely touched a chain. Nothing unlucky in that.

Straight up missed the putt. Nothing unlucky about it. It barely tickled the right-side chains. Problem was Paul had the best drive in the center of the fairway and wound up outside the circle on his upshot.

You're quite the dancer... uncharacteristic for Paul to miss that putt in that situation? yes. unlucky? no.

I guess I look at luck differently. If luck played no part in McBeth missing that putt, why did he miss? Did he mess up his physical and mental routine before the putt? I didn't notice anything. Unless he identified a specific mistake that he made that went into him missing that putt, I'm chalking it up to luck. Maybe he said he messed up his stance or his release or he entertained some negative thoughts that ruined his routine under such an intense moment and I didn't see it. If that's the case then I'll dismiss the luck factor.

I view McBeth missing a putt like that similar to when Steph Curry misses a free throw. If all the variables that go into that missed putt or that missed free throw are the same as the overwhelmingly huge percentage of those made putts or made free throws then what other variable is there to consider aside from luck?

 

[JTacoma03]

Ricky has definitely improved, no doubt. Very impressive to see him confident and focused.
However, PM has typically lowered his scores and caught the field on the 4th round or even later.
The Euro Masters only had three rounds this year. Would Paul have won if it had been 4 rounds? We'll never know, but I would have bet on Paul to win by a few in the 4th.

A very important point about the WT and PT, many of those tournaments are 3 rounds.

Though next year if Ricky keeps closing the ratings gap that will be less of a lurking variable

 

[corin_brown]

More like Spud Webb.

I thought it was Manute and Muggsy playing together for the Rhode Island Gulls but you're correct, it was Spud.

Turns out that later Manute and Muggsy also played together for the Bulkets too, so I guess I mixed them all up in my memory.

Still, height gap is still a little bit more bit more than the height gap b/t Paul & Rick.

 

[alfonseski]

I guess I look at luck differently. If luck played no part in McBeth missing that putt, why did he miss? Did he mess up his physical and mental routine before the putt? I didn't notice anything. Unless he identified a specific mistake that he made that went into him missing that putt, I'm chalking it up to luck. Maybe he said he messed up his stance or his release or he entertained some negative thoughts that ruined his routine under such an intense moment and I didn't see it. If that's the case then I'll dismiss the luck factor.

I view McBeth missing a putt like that similar to when Steph Curry misses a free throw. If all the variables that go into that missed putt or that missed free throw are the same as the overwhelmingly huge percentage of those made putts or made free throws then what other variable is there to consider aside from luck?

I play basketball and understand this analogy but it really isn't the same. First of all you almost never ever have the same putt twice. With a free throw its the same EVERY time. So what you are saying is Paul is so good that he misses a small % which are not errors, just small deviations for the spot he is going for and then, "Luck" being the final variable so those are not misses.

I will give you this, if he is in the circle on flat ground this is mostly true, but even someone with that skill level MISSES sometimes. Secondly that specific putt was not a normal easy in the circle putt. I have not seen the full vid yet but it looked like edge of circle on a weird angle up a hill. Suddenly all kinds of Variables are added to that equation and its impossible to calculate it right every time no matter how good you are.

Sometimes I am surprised by the clear Bias towards Paul Mcbeth on this board. He loses only cause he is hurt. If he is hurt he should not play. You think if Ricky was hurt people would say, well Ricky is hurt or he would have won. Now apparently he is so skilled that the only time he misses is when luck and fate intersect to create the miss, that is skill.

As you probably guess I am a Ricky fan. That being said Paul Mcbeth is a extremely prepared, talented golfer and a fierce competitor. If Ricky wanted to be great, he was going to have to beat a great and he is starting to do that. Look at tennis, Federer was the best ever right, wait, how is this happening, Rafael Nadal is actually better than him, hes the best ever right, actually no Novak Djokovic passed them both. Its the cycle of sports. so sit back and enjoy and stop making excuses. When Ricky lost in Finland he just lost, he was not hurt or a meteor did not hit his disc on that fateful upshot.

 

[DanJon]

If Ricky had a serious back injury and wasnt playing at his usual level I'm sure most people would connect that.

 

[corin_brown]

I play basketball and understand this analogy but it really isn't the same. First of all you almost never ever have the same putt twice. With a free throw its the same EVERY time.

Of course not all putts are the same. I'm talking about putts from that distance and relative position to the basket. McBeth has a percentage under those conditions and while I'm not certain what exactly it is, I know the percentage is very high.

So what you are saying is Paul is so good that he misses a small % which are not errors, just small deviations for the spot he is going for and then, "Luck" being the final variable so those are not misses.

Yup. Low percentage events happen to everyone. In this case (missing a high percentage putt) McBeth was unlucky that it happened on 18 and not during his next tournament or something. Again, that is, if he didn't notice any mistakes he made in execution, which I'm assuming he didn't.

I will give you this, if he is in the circle on flat ground this is mostly true, but even someone with that skill level MISSES sometimes. Secondly that specific putt was not a normal easy in the circle putt. I have not seen the full vid yet but it looked like edge of circle on a weird angle up a hill. Suddenly all kinds of Variables are added to that equation and its impossible to calculate it right every time no matter how good you are.

I didn't think the putt was that abnormal. It was around 35 feet, same elevation. The ground surface was canted slightly. But that's not the point, he still has a percentage of putts under those conditions, and the percentage is high. He's not perfect and he will miss some. When those misses occur is largely down to luck.

Sometimes I am surprised by the clear Bias towards Paul Mcbeth on this board. He loses only cause he is hurt. If he is hurt he should not play. You think if Ricky was hurt people would say, well Ricky is hurt or he would have won. Now apparently he is so skilled that the only time he misses is when luck and fate intersect to create the miss, that is skill.

Really? I think Rick's getting plenty of well-deserved love on this thread and everywhere else, for that matter. The general consensus is that he's edging out the best player in the world this year in performance. I think folks have been pretty fair. Paul's been the king for a while - it's understandable that he has many devoted fans. But he's getting pushed for the first time in a while. And everyone seems to be loving the battle.

When Ricky lost in Finland he just lost, he was not hurt or a meteor did not hit his disc on that fateful upshot.

You mean Rick's drive on 18 at Nokia that went OB? I'm forgetting.

 

[Porthos]

That's not luck, it is statistics. If McBeth makes putts at the edge of the circle in tournaments 95% of the time, it means he is going to miss 1 out of 20. This was just 1 of those 20 times he misses.

You could say it was bad luck if a bird flew by and hit his disc in the air, or if an unexpected gust of wind came up just as he threw, but that didn't happen. You could also argue bad luck if his disc did hit the center of the chains and bounced out but that didn't happen either. Paul just missed the putt.

 

[JTacoma03]

Sometimes I am surprised by the clear Bias towards Paul Mcbeth on this board. He loses only cause he is hurt. If he is hurt he should not play. You think if Ricky was hurt people would say, well Ricky is hurt or he would have won.

...clear bias? I think you're sipping on the "what have you done for me lately" kool-aid.

The guy has won 4 World titles in a row, just completed the Grand Slam for the first time in the history of the sport, world #1, highest rated player, broke the money record last year before worlds, and only player ever rated over 1050, convinced Innova to buy him out of a GripEq contract (the strictest in the game, by FAR), got Innova to sign him multi-year, etc, etc...


Ricky is getting his due this year, and he's having a better year...nobody is denying that. Ricky is a phenomenal player.

BUT (and this is a big BUT) - Ricky has been playing this well for 4 months, Paul for 4 years.

 

[corin_brown]

That's not luck, it is statistics. If McBeth makes putts at the edge of the circle in tournaments 95% of the time, it means he is going to miss 1 out of 20. This was just 1 of those 20 times he misses.

So what's controlling when those 1/20 misses show up?

You say that like luck and statistics have no relation to each other.

When those 5% of misses show up is luck.

When a Steph Curry free throw to win the game goes in and out, that's unlucky.

 

[VictorB]

...clear bias? I think you're sipping on the "what have you done for me lately" kool-aid.

and?

Most discussion in sport is a 'what are you doing now' kind of analysis...especially golf since we don't get clear wins/losses like most traditional sports.

PMcB has played well for the most part this year, but why compare him to the bar he set last season? He won almost every single event he won...that pace simply cannot be kept up. Ricky has markedly improved his play this year, but it's not like he's come out of the woodwork as some unknown quantity, he's been there at the top but just not winning worlds (yet). I'm sure of all people, McBeth knows that he can't ride his past successes to future wins.

Why discuss who the best player is in the world on the merits of any tournaments that aren't played this year?

 

[ScottyLove]

Yup. Low percentage events happen to everyone. In this case (missing a high percentage putt) McBeth was unlucky that it happened on 18 and not during his next tournament or something. Again, that is, if he didn't notice any mistakes he made in execution, which I'm assuming he didn't.

I think you're saying the timing was bad. It was the fact that his very low percentage miss was on the last hole to tie. That's not unlucky... just bad timing because the miss was going to happen eventually. Paul doesn't make 100%.

 

[DirtyMeathook]

Why discuss who the best player is in the world on the merits of any tournaments that aren't played this year?

I agree with much of what you are saying, not the quoted part, though. If we are discussing who is having the best season, then of course last years events have no merit, if we are discussing who is a better player, of course they do. Certainly more recent events should be weighted when considering one's abilities, but suggesting that what a player did 11 months ago absolutely factors into grading someone's skill, but what they did 13 months ago has no bearing at all, doesn't make sense.

 

[sandelius]

...clear bias? I think you're sipping on the "what have you done for me lately" kool-aid.

...

BUT (and this is a big BUT) - Ricky has been playing this well for 4 months, Paul for 4 years.

LOL :wall::wall::wall:

Ricky has been playing well every year! He has been battling with McBeth every year almost every tournament for 1st place.

The bias is real. Your post shows it.

 

[joecoin]

That's not luck, it is statistics. If McBeth makes putts at the edge of the circle in tournaments 95% of the time, it means he is going to miss 1 out of 20. This was just 1 of those 20 times he misses...

So he had made exactly 19 putts prior to that one? I don't think I'd like knowing in advance which putt I'm going to miss. (If I didn't already know I'm gonna miss most of them).

Statistics be damned !!!

 

[corin_brown]

I think you're saying the timing was bad. It was the fact that his very low percentage miss was on the last hole to tie. That's not unlucky... just bad timing because the miss was going to happen eventually. Paul doesn't make 100%.

The whole concept of timing occurred to me just now while thinking about all this. I'm definitely talking about timing.

But I also think bad timing is bad luck. McBeth would have been luckier if that miss pops up in a random hole, in an early round, on a hole to make a double bogey, in a tournament he ends up finishing 10th in.

Steph Curry is 90% from the line. If, over two games, he's 9/10 from the line and they lose the first game by a point after he misses a free throw to tie but they win the second game by 20 and he was perfect from the line, the timing of his miss in the first game was bad and unlucky.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Except they add round scores together for the total in disc golf and each game score is a separate W or L in basketball. So a miss in DG is just as punitive/lucky/probable at any time but still counts the same other than dramatic content.

 

[Porthos]

So what's controlling when those 1/20 misses show up?

You say that like luck and statistics have no relation to each other.

When those 5% of misses show up is luck.

When a Steph Curry free throw to win the game goes in and out, that's unlucky.

Luck is when something happens that is mostly out of the players control like a wind gust or spit out after hitting the chains dead center.

A putt that misses without any external factors is not bad luck but rather a bad shot.