[Gateway] Medium Wizards No Longer PDGA Legal?

[Mr. America]

So the real question here is who at the PDGA did Gateway piss off?

 

[Mattallica]

the new firebirds are definitely too stiff then

good thing I already stocked up

 

[iacas]

Technically they're not.

Why do you say that?

A Wizard that weighs 175g is illegal. Technically, a disc that's had its "original flight characteristics" (or whatever the wording is there) altered is technically illegal too.

It's not exactly a rule you can enforce (even the weight rule is tough to enforce, let alone this stiffness one), but I'm just curious about the actual legality.

Well the thing that is going to make this all interesting is the new PDGA rule this year that basically says it's enough for someone on your card to QUESTION the legality of your disc to make it illegal to throw again until a TD or marshall says otherwise. So if someone questions the stiffness of your disc 2 holes into the round you can't throw it again until you bring the disc to the TD to inspect and make the call whether or not the disc is legal.

Two quick things:
1) You seem to contradict yourself here. You said above that they're legal, so someone could not question the legality of a disc based on the stiffness. That'd be like saying "I think your disc is illegal because it's pink." That's why I think I disagree with you: a disc that's too stiff, whether it was produced too stiff or has become too stiff over time, is IMO illegal.

2) The PDGA has responded by saying that this rule already exists, this is just a slight re-wording of the rule. So if we didn't have any incidents in 2012 I don't know that we should expect them in 2013.

 

[Future_Primitive]

Has anyone ever been to a baseball game? Amateur or professional? Ever seen a window break or someone get hit by a foul ball?? I've seen both and I'll be willing to bet that does more damage than any disc. I've been hit by a flying disc. Direct hit to my upper arm and it was bearable... this just amazes me...

Ever been to a hockey game? They dont make the pucks any softer bc ppl in the crowd get hit. Maybe they should change to a ball completely.

Well in both cases you received a ticket to enter the game and watch. On said ticket is a disclaimer about what can happen and how you can be injured. Therefore you assume some degree of risk when going to spectate a game.

Someone else posted already, apologies for the non quote, but it is not the shrapnel but the possible non golfing park dwellers who are at risk. Some parks I have seen even went so far as to mandate 150 class discs or lightweight discs to reduce the injuries to non players also using the park. So the hardness of the disc would also come into play. Cant have a mom walking their child in the park drilled with a cement brick of a disc. Have to have some give to it.

On that note, I do find it strange it is dealing with a putter vs driver or mid. Wonder why they chose this battle.

 

[New013]

yea i was just thinking about the stiff firechickens... pdga can't take away my rolling machine

 

[notroman]

Why do you say that?

A Wizard that weighs 175g is illegal. Technically, a disc that's had its "original flight characteristics" (or whatever the wording is there) altered is technically illegal too.

It's not exactly a rule you can enforce (even the weight rule is tough to enforce, let alone this stiffness one), but I'm just curious about the actual legality.



Two quick things:
1) You seem to contradict yourself here. You said above that they're legal, so someone could not question the legality of a disc based on the stiffness. That'd be like saying "I think your disc is illegal because it's pink." That's why I think I disagree with you: a disc that's too stiff, whether it was produced too stiff or has become too stiff over time, is IMO illegal.

2) The PDGA has responded by saying that this rule already exists, this is just a slight re-wording of the rule. So if we didn't have any incidents in 2012 I don't know that we should expect them in 2013.

I should have been more clear. Let me write it again.

Technically they're not [legal].

The rule before allowed you to continue playing with the disc unless it was obviously not legal for play (cracked, had a hole in it, etc). The new wording basically says it's enough for someone to question your disc and you can't throw it anymore until the TD says it's okay.

 

[notroman]

Someone else posted already, apologies for the non quote, but it is not the shrapnel but the possible non golfing park dwellers who are at risk. Some parks I have seen even went so far as to mandate 150 class discs or lightweight discs to reduce the injuries to non players also using the park. So the hardness of the disc would also come into play. Cant have a mom walking their child in the park drilled with a cement brick of a disc. Have to have some give to it.

Would you rather take a stiff putter to the head or a XG Boss to the head? The Boss is nice and gummy...

I can see this quickly going to the 150-class rules as well.

 

[aPfaff]

What about the classic aviars, they are pretty stiff?

 

[thechamp]

It sounded like the wizard was first just because it was in their hands, I'm sure other molds and manufacturers are next.
The value of these would be zero to people who play seriously, People don't drive with an aerobie ring, or putt with a 290 gram Wizard on a regular basis.
Maybe the PDGA is going to shift more toward manufacturers being responsible for producing legal discs only.

 

[notroman]

It sounded like the wizard was first just because it was in their hands, I'm sure other molds and manufacturers are next.
The value of these would be zero to people who play seriously, People don't drive with an aerobie ring, or putt with a 290 gram Wizard on a regular basis.
Maybe the PDGA is going to shift more toward manufacturers being responsible for producing legal discs only.

My buddy interned at PDGA all summer and he picked up a bunch of the stiff flat top Firebirds for himself from their pro shop...

 

[Carnavas]

Technically they're not. If someone tries calling me on that I will gladly call them on something out of their bag as well. I don't know anyone that has a bag full of gummy discs.

Hello, my name is Stephen. And I carry gummy discs.

 

[notroman]

Hello, my name is Stephen. And I carry gummy discs.

You are a wise man. I might be jealous of you when it's freezing out. Not so much in the summer.

 

[THE GOV'NA]

why is a 175g wizard illegal?

also they didnt ban m wizards..they didnt ban any disc..they just have a rule and gateway is stopping priduction of that plastic because it doesnt meet the specs..innova,discraft and everyone one else lives by the same rules and will likely follow suite.

and who made this a putter vs driver debate

gateway simply said they werent making pdga legal m wizards anymore...thats it..everyone is running away with this one lol.

 

[notroman]

why is a 175g wizard illegal?

also they didnt ban m wizards..they didnt ban any disc..they just have a rule and gateway is stopping priduction of that plastic because it doesnt meet the specs..innova,discraft and everyone one else lives by the same rules and will likely follow suite.

and who made this a putter vs driver debate

gateway simply said they werent making pdga legal m wizards anymore...thats it..everyone is running away with this one lol.

Because max weight is a function of the diameter, and the Wizard being 21.0cm in diameter technically can't weigh over 174.3g

Most small diameter discs are 21.1cm which puts their limit at 175.1g, but there are a few at 21.0cm

 

[New013]

they didnt ban m wizards..they didnt ban any disc..they just have a rule and gateway is stopping priduction of that plastic because it doesnt meet the specs.

so they didn't ban them...

but they have a rule that doesn't allow them......

hrmm.....

opcorn:

 

[Cgkdisc]

Speaking only from the Tech Standards standpoint (not Rules), we get discs reported to us to check out and Jason at the IDGC randomly tests production discs sold there which I believe covers most of the manufacturer models when available. Dave at Gateway was concerned he was being called out unfairly but agreed with test results on those discs. He and others have claimed discs from other manufacturers would probably not pass the flex test. We agreed that could be true and offered him the opportunity to specify models we should check. He has not yet indicated any models.

While it's easy to be more black & white whether a disc meets tech specs or not in the lab, it's a whole different issue to handle it in the field from a rules standpoint. I'm concerned about the change in the 2013 rules and the likelihood there may be more confrontations on disc legality. We'll see.

From a practical standpoint, I understand why it doesn't make as much sense to worry about flex on a putter versus a driver. We faced the same question when the blanket 150g weight limit for all discs was being considered in the early 90s for discs in Japan. At the time, I think it was considered a gnarly mess to develop some sort of damage force test for discs that would set some sort of magic standard for the maximum impact of the combination of weight, edge and flex that would be allowed. It would still be gnarly today. And, I suspect the idea was/is not to raise the specter that some discs might be less safe than others from a legal perspective.

 

[notroman]

Speaking only from the Tech Standards standpoint (not Rules), we get discs reported to us to check out and Jason at the IDGC randomly tests production discs sold there which I believe covers most of the manufacturer models when available. Dave at Gateway was concerned he was being called out unfairly but agreed with test results on those discs. He and others have claimed discs from other manufacturers would probably not pass the flex test. We agreed that could be true and offered him the opportunity to specify models we should check. He has not yet indicated any models.

While it's easy to be more black & white whether a disc meets tech specs or not in the lab, it's a whole different issue to handle it in the field from a rules standpoint. I'm concerned about the change in the 2013 rules and the likelihood there may be more confrontations on disc legality. We'll see.

From a practical standpoint, I understand why it doesn't make as much sense to worry about flex on a putter versus a driver. We faced the same question when the blanket 150g weight limit for all discs was being considered in the early 90s for discs in Japan. At the time, I think it was considered a gnarly mess to develop some sort of damage force test for discs that would set some sort of magic standard for the maximum impact of the combination of weight, edge and flex that would be allowed. It would still be gnarly today. And, I suspect the idea was/is not to raise the specter that some discs might be less safe than others from a legal perspective.

Well, the guys at IDGC don't have to walk far to go to their pro shop and pick out a flat champ Firebird, or any of the new Innova drivers with that "glass" looking clear champion plastic. Every disc in that plastic that I've felt has been pretty stiff.

 

[THE GOV'NA]

Because max weight is a function of the diameter, and the Wizard being 21.0cm in diameter technically can't weigh over 174.3g

Most small diameter discs are 21.1cm which puts their limit at 175.1g, but there are a few at 21.0cm

hmm good info..thx

 

[notroman]

Chuck,

I guess my other concern would be actually enforcing the rule. Gateway made it easy by classifying flex levels for their putters, so you can simply say that medium is too stiff. Done. No more medium Wizards. What about manufacturers like Innova where the stiffness of a disc varies from run to run based on plastic they use? I had Firebirds I could bend in half and Firebirds I can't even bend a little. Forget plastic blends, they have 3 different Roc molds that are all approved under the same name that was sent in for approval back in 1987. I don't know if there are any Rocs out there now that are the same as they were in 1987. You can't just say "tell us what is illegal and we'll look at it". You either enforce the rule or you don't. Otherwise you end up with what you have now with markets saturated with discs that don't pass PDGA standards and nearly every player having at least a few discs in their bag that technically don't meet PDGA rules.

 

[tarel]

So i am going to call out my entire group for putters then use my arrow and brick to putt rest of the round.

sweet