Should ams receive payouts?

[DavidSauls]

We offer trophy only ($20 gets you a $15 player pack plus a chance at divisional CTPs) as a reduced entry fee option. We only get 2-4% of players taking that option over the regular I-want-to-win-plastic entry fee of $30.

That's quite interesting. We don't offer the trophy-only option, and have never ever had anyone inquire about it.

Not sure what the conclusion is. It could be that few tournament players really want trophy-only. It could be that they wouldn't mind it but, given a choice, prefer merch-payout.

 

[New013]

So you're saying local leagues are ruining the PDGA? They're competing in the exact same way.

No that's not what I'm saying at all. You're saying that the PDGA is for professionals and Ams don't deserve payouts. I'm saying if there was an ADGA that was for amateurs and they paid out those ams in merch after the PDGA stopped doing so it would completely ruin the PDGA. There's no way the PDGA built just on open competition can compete with an org that is much more accomidating to what Ams want.

I notice people pop in and say stuff like this but they never answer to any of the examples of the super popular sports and activities that don't offer prizes to AMs. Is running for an hour so much more fun than disc golf that people are willing to spend $40 to do it with no chance of a payout where as in disc golf you have to bribe people to compete? In every M:TG tournament I've been to nearly everyone can tell you who the top 8 will be before the tournament even starts and the rest know they won't get anything. There's just no evidence supporting that claim. What sport was on the brink of becoming popular but was held back because skill protected players weren't given payouts? How come the people that say it won't affect attendance can list off many examples but those that say it will affect attendance can't list any?

Your making the same mistake others are making with these types of examples. The difference between disc golf and other sports is the cats already out of the bag. The system of payouts to Ams is already in place. For every person like you who comes on here and says well it's no big deal if we take that away I garuntee you there are 10 who are saying the opposite. Beyond that if even 1 in 10 quit playing in sanctioned tourneys because of the PDGA's move that is going to drastically set the PDGA back. When you're trying to grow a sport you don't make moves that piss people off you do everything you can to accomodate them.

And that's the point of local leagues. You aren't measuring yourself against all other disc golfers, just the ones in your extremely limited player pool. The PDGA is meant to compare you to a much larger pool and that's the point.

I'm not measuring myself against all other golfers when I play PDGA's. Where is that idea coming from? I'm not playing against guys in Cali when I play a PDGA. A good amount of the people I'm playing against when I play a PDGA are the same people I'm playing in at a local event. In fact when I play singles in my club I'm playing against competition much greater than what I play in PDGA's.

And every bit of evidence anyone has ever given shows that you are in the minority. It would obviously cost less because the TD wouldn't need to fun prizes for the AM's.

What evidence, show me the evidence. If you bring up Worlds then I'm just going to laugh at you. Worlds is a huge tournament with a ton of prestige. Of course you can take away payouts and people will still come. For big events like that you can make that kind of move because the experience of it all is what people are coming for more than anything.

However Worlds is a once a year thing, most tourneys are B & C Tiers and how many of those are currently running no payout? What's the percentage? Show me some evidence that it wouldn't hurt the smaller events ran by clubs.

The PDGA probably does need AM's to fund pro purses

Probably? lol, without the Ams there is no PDGA.

but no one has given any shred of evidence that this means that AM's need prizes for sucking a specific amount.

The evidence is how many people have come on this site and said in these discussions they want payouts. The evidence is how well tourneys are doing that give Ams payouts. The evidence is the huge growth in sanctioned events under the Am payout model.

Nobody has ever said you shouldn't be able to run tourneys with lower entry fees and no payout. Nobody is stopping you from going out and running events in that manner. If you want to push for that model go out and support it.

Personally I'd rather play events with no players pack and less people cashing. I do think it's silly that half a field gets paid out. However I'm not coming on here and telling everybody that the PDGA should force TD's and players to do things a certain way.

I just don't like people trying to take away the freedom of others to run an event or play an event in the way they like. You want to limit our sport and TD's, you're just being selfish for whatever reason. I don't understand why you want this, how does it hurt you or our sport to keep things the way they are. Things are looking really good for disc golf and people like you are giving us this doom and gloom report about how this is messing things up. I want everyone free to decide on their own what events to play.

 

[The Hammer]

This thread needs a poll.

 

[bnbanbury]

This thread needs a poll.

Good idea

 

[mashnut]

I'm not measuring myself against all other golfers when I play PDGA's. Where is that idea coming from? I'm not playing against guys in Cali when I play a PDGA. A good amount of the people I'm playing against when I play a PDGA are the same people I'm playing in at a local event. In fact when I play singles in my club I'm playing against competition much greater than what I play in PDGA's.

With ratings you are comparing yourself against other players. That's one of the biggest reasons I hear from newer players joining the PDGA, they want the rating to be able to compare to other players. The ratings have shown to be very portable and consistent between different places, so you do have the chance to compare yourself with other PDGA members. Whether or not that's important to you, it's important to many others.

 

[gcanter2376]

That's part of the problem: most people will pay once or twice for the novelty or the "experience." Once the novelty's worn off, how do you get them to come back?

True.

That's the key. Charity fundraisers give disc golfers a reason to compete in tournaments and are easier to get sponsors.

Exactly.

 

[DavidSauls]

This thread needs a poll.

I vote against having a poll.

 

[smyith]

where is the option for no players pack and getting payouts?

That's quite interesting. We don't offer the trophy-only option, and have never ever had anyone inquire about it.

Not sure what the conclusion is. It could be that few tournament players really want trophy-only. It could be that they wouldn't mind it but, given a choice, prefer merch-payout.

the people i know who have taken the trophy only option are usually MA1 players playing on the Pro day. (IOS does Pro/MA2/MA4 one day and MA1/MA3 the other).

 

[mashnut]

Or the option to continue the current model where TDs can do any of the above.

 

[Dave242]

If it's on a good course, turnout will be pretty good---even pros show up.

Hmmm.

That's an interesting thought I had never really considered.

Like 3putt said, if you build an ice cream shop, you should not be surprised if fat people show up. I am wondering if the crowd that the big prizes attract would show up for a competition on a course as boring as throwing discs around the edge of a football fields. How much of a draw is the actual course? How much are prizes a factor in compensating for boring courses?

Mental chewing gum for me. Thanks.

 

[biscoe]

We offer trophy only ($20 gets you a $15 player pack plus a chance at divisional CTPs) as a reduced entry fee option. We only get 2-4% of players taking that option over the regular I-want-to-win-plastic entry fee of $30.

our experience here was virtually identical- right down to the entry fees. players overwhelmingly chose to play for stuff.

 

[Karl]

Boy, I go out and play 36 holes in this heat at Tinicum and look all the stuff I've missed!

David, I hear you (about the status quo being hard to combat). I plan on holding "different" types of tournaments when I relocate back to my roots (aren't there most of the time now) and totally understand that I'll probably not "fill" - as people DO like the comfort of 'the same o'l same o'l'.

Karl
Ps: Part of me almost believes that people WANT to be able to yell 'bagger', wouldn't really want change to be effected, and are happiest WHEN complaining about something; their perception of 'bagging' (whether real or not) is actually desired!

 

[smyith]

That's an interesting thought I had never really considered.

Like 3putt said, if you build an ice cream shop, you should not be surprised if fat people show up. I am wondering if the crowd that the big prizes attract would show up for a competition on a course as boring as throwing discs around the edge of a football fields. How much of a draw is the actual course? How much are prizes a factor in compensating for boring courses?

Mental chewing gum for me. Thanks.

to a touring pro i think two factors really come into play; # of "worthy" competitors and if the course suits their game.
i doubt that alot of touring pros would show up for a super birdie fest. there would be no room to distance yourself.

 

[FredVegasDGC]

It seems to me that most of the complaints about no payouts are the players that have a chance of making the cash positions.

As a player that shells out $35-40 and sometimes $50 to play an event with virtually no chance of making it to the cash I appreciate getting something out of it.

A good example was the Loco Open i recently played, got a ROC 3 and other stuff in the players pack and won a Fade bag in a raffle they held at the end of the day.

Not to mention the delicious BBQ lunch they provided.

But it's everyone's own opinion. Some like trophies some don't. If you in to playing disc golf tournaments for the payout then you need to forget about Ams and start playing Open.

Sometimes I believe most good players are just so jaded or spoiled to the concept of amateur competition they forget what it's all about in the first place. To walk around a wooded area throwing plastic and muttering obscenities...

 

[rj29274]

I agree with most of your post Fred. I think big am payouts discourage top amateurs from moving up to Open. Give everyone a huge player pack, several CTPs, and trophies to the winners.

TDs can still unload their plastic, using the markups to cover fees and other expenses, if applicable.

 

[Dave242]

to a touring pro i think two factors really come into play; # of "worthy" competitors and if the course suits their game.
i doubt that alot of touring pros would show up for a super birdie fest. there would be no room to distance yourself.

This is all presupposing a worthy payout for them. But, we are talking about Ams here and their choices/motivations for attending events.

I wonder if there were 2 PDGA sanctioned C-Tier Am events in opposite directions 30 miles away to chose from.
**One course is an open, short, flat, boring course (2.25 rated) with a $40 entry fee, $30 players pack and 150% payout.
**The other is a 4.75 rated course (wooded mix, hilly, grassy, nice tees, clean bathrooms, quiet, pretty, nice signs) with $15 entry fee, tourney stamped DX Roc for players pack, and with prizes of only homemade trophies for the top 3 finishers in each division.

Who would get more players and why? This is what I am wondering.

 

[Brodysseus]

This is all presupposing a worthy payout for them. But, we are talking about Ams here and their choices/motivations for attending events.

I wonder if there were 2 PDGA sanctioned C-Tier Am events in opposite directions 30 miles away to chose from.
**One course is an open, short, flat, boring course (2.25 rated) with a $40 entry fee, $30 players pack and 150% payout.
**The other is a 4.75 rated course (wooded mix, hilly, grassy, nice tees, clean bathrooms, quiet, pretty, nice signs) with $15 entry fee, tourney stamped DX Roc for players pack, and with prizes of only homemade trophies for the top 3 finishers in each division.

Who would get more players and why? This is what I am wondering.

The first option would probably draw more players. But I would be at the second option.

 

[DavidSauls]

This is all presupposing a worthy payout for them. But, we are talking about Ams here and their choices/motivations for attending events.

I wonder if there were 2 PDGA sanctioned C-Tier Am events in opposite directions 30 miles away to chose from.
**One course is an open, short, flat, boring course (2.25 rated) with a $40 entry fee, $30 players pack and 150% payout.
**The other is a 4.75 rated course (wooded mix, hilly, grassy, nice tees, clean bathrooms, quiet, pretty, nice signs) with $15 entry fee, tourney stamped DX Roc for players pack, and with prizes of only homemade trophies for the top 3 finishers in each division.

Who would get more players and why? This is what I am wondering.

Probably the 2nd, at least around here.

For years Columbia was running two 2-day B-tiers a year. In March, exclusively at Earlewood Park, we'd fill to 100 in hours, sometimes minutes. In October, a crosstown with Earlewood and the lower-rated Owens Field, we'd struggle to 50.

Ashe County, a very highly-rated course in the N.C. mountains, ran a trophy-only event that filled. $25 entry, dri-fit players pack, barbeque lunch. On a course at least 2 hours from any significantly sized disc golf population. Yet it pre-filled. (In recent years I believe they've converted to a standard payout and are still filling. It just shows that it's possible).

For years Charleston filled on their annual temporary course at Hampton Park (My rating: 5.0), with a trophy-only event and, again, about a $25 entry. It filled, even when the nearest permanent course was 100 miles away. (It, too, has gone to standard payout).

Anecdotal evidence that the course matters more than the payout. But if the courses are closer to even, the payout will win out.

Also, anecdotal evidence that players will still clamor for payouts, and probably win out.

*

At Stoney Hill we've run a standard 2-day C-tier in the Spring, and a 1-day fundraiser in the fall. In the fundraiser we had no players pack, and very modest payouts for pros & ams (half the entry went to charity). The charity event has drawn as well as the standard.

Crooked Creek runs 2 standard events a year. They also used to run 1 charity fundraiser, low entry, trophy only. The latter had the highest attendance.

None of which proves anything, except perhaps that there are circumstances where trophy-only will work, on a good or great course.

 

[Brodysseus]

$20-$25 entry, 2 rounds on an interesting and fun course, dri fit players pack, and trophy only is my ideal tournament.

 

[Dave242]

tangent: Dri fits (and any shirt) is a major PITA for the TD. TDs need to pre-order well in advance and know the exact count of each size (including women's styles & sizes). TD's can be stuck holding a lot of expensive unused and unsellable inventory very quickly.