When is it alright to 3?

[Halcón]

I live right by there...are you in this area?

No. I just figured that course fit well I to what Dan was talking about.

 

[The Last DJ]

I'm still trying to deuce a 400-footer at my home course. It's just never happened even after hundreds of rounds. Seeing as that my best drive on that one is around 360' I'm still hoping to break a three...

 

[jeverett]

Well, as no one else has mentioned trying it.. you can actually use the DGCR 'SSE' formulas backwards to get a rough ballpark estimate for what a SSA 54 course might look like, in terms of length. Yes, this is a big extrapolation, and certainly should be taken with a grain of salt (at least). But, given a course of 'moderate foliage/technicality', the SSE formulas predict SSE 54 at a total course length of 6596ft., or an average hole length of 366ft.

Note: 6596ft. is actually pretty long for an 18-hole course, when you go looking at total course lengths.

 

[Dave242]

Well, as no one else has mentioned trying it.. you can actually use the DGCR 'SSE' formulas backwards to get a rough ballpark estimate for what a SSA 54 course might look like, in terms of length. Yes, this is a big extrapolation, and certainly should be taken with a grain of salt (at least). But, given a course of 'moderate foliage/technicality', the SSE formulas predict SSE 54 at a total course length of 6596ft., or an average hole length of 366ft.

Note: 6596ft. is actually pretty long for an 18-hole course, when you go looking at total course lengths.

You posted this about the time I started at the top of the thread. I was planning to show the math behind SSE when I read the OP (and clarification to David Sauls' question).

For a wide open course ("Lightly Wooded" in DGCR terminology), the SSE formula is (I believe):
SSE = Length/355' + 30 + (Length - 5400)/1800
Average Pro throw on a wide open course is 355'
Average throws to putt-out is 1-2/3's (18*1.666=30)
Courses over 5400' get a higher scores

In the OP question, SSE=54. So then you just solve for Length:
Length = 8,006'....445' per hole

This is for a Lightly Wooded course per post #3 (jeverett's was for Moderately Wooded)

Does there happen to be any open courses of around this length people know of to verify this?

 

[Dave242]

Well, as no one else has mentioned trying it.. you can actually use the DGCR 'SSE' formulas backwards to get a rough ballpark estimate for what a SSA 54 course might look like, in terms of length. Yes, this is a big extrapolation, and certainly should be taken with a grain of salt (at least). But, given a course of 'moderate foliage/technicality', the SSE formulas predict SSE 54 at a total course length of 6596ft., or an average hole length of 366ft.

Note: 6596ft. is actually pretty long for an 18-hole course, when you go looking at total course lengths.

FWIW, Pro Worlds 2013 used a very similar course to what you describe here....Lemon Lake Red.

6,369' (353' average) Moderately Wooded. SSE is 53, and actual SSA average from all rounds played (in consistent very good weather conditions by a large statistical sample size) is 53.9.

This seems to verify that you need less than a grain of salt for these SSE calculations.

 

[DavidSauls]

Once you get into moderately wooded, or any other wooded, you get into subjectivity in the description, and a lot of variables in the holes themselves---such as how much turn there is in the fairway, and how much of the woodedness exists near the basket. Very hard to say what length wooded hole produces as many 2s as 4s for scratch disc golfers.

Elevation is easy to factor on distance, but what about elevation by the basket?

 

[Dave242]

Yes, but using cases where we have good data (like Lemon Lake Red), we can make helpful clarifying statements like "a course that is slightly less wooded/tight than LL Red is what a 'Moderately Wooded' course looks like".

What you are getting at is individual hole design and scoring spread......which is a different topic than SSA/SSE (albeit a closely related topic).

 

[Halcón]

Of course the reality is that any wide open course is either going to have water, or artificial OB (or both) for a tourney layout. So the mythical 8,500'-9,000' wide open layout will never really exist.

And it shouldn't, as that would make for some boring golf.

 

[DavidSauls]

Yes, but using cases where we have good data (like Lemon Lake Red), we can make helpful clarifying statements like "a course that is slightly less wooded/tight than LL Red is what a 'Moderately Wooded' course looks like".

What you are getting at is individual hole design and scoring spread......which is a different topic than SSA/SSE (albeit a closely related topic).

Well, the O.P. was talking about a course with every hole the same length, which comes down to individual hole design.

An interesting question would be whether a course with an SSA of 54 and every hole the same length, would have the same total length as a course with an SSA of 54, the same foliage and elevation, but a variety of individual hole lengths.

My guess is, it wouldn't. If 500' is the answer to the O.P. (9,000', wide open course, SSA 54), then a course of 9 300' holes and 9 700' holes would probably have a lower SSA, despite the same length.

 

[Horsman]

Does SSA account for this, I thought it was just total length, not indivisual hole length.

Well, the O.P. was talking about a course with every hole the same length, which comes down to individual hole design.

An interesting question would be whether a course with an SSA of 54 and every hole the same length, would have the same total length as a course with an SSA of 54, the same foliage and elevation, but a variety of individual hole lengths.

My guess is, it wouldn't. If 500' is the answer to the O.P. (9,000', wide open course, SSA 54), then a course of 9 300' holes and 9 700' holes would probably have a lower SSA, despite the same length.

 

[Dan Ensor]

Yes. For a 54, they would need to take enough 2s to counteract the 4s. There should be an expectation of taking a 3.

What about a 45? When should they be taking as many 2s as 3s?

36?

I'll chime in with my guestimations in a couple hours after class.

I'm sorry, I completely mis-spoke here. When do the number of 2s equal the number of 3s? I'm not asking what's possible for a pro to 2, I'm asking what they're expected to 2.

Very sorry; early in the morning, I obviously wasn't awake.

I'd think pros would be expected to 2 anything 300' or less. Probably expected to 3 anything 650' or less.

 

[Hampstead]

During last year's BHMO Melynda Apton shot a 54 (all 3's) on the Westside temp course for a 993 rated round. It's not an especially long course but there are a fair amount of challenging holes.

 

[DavidSauls]

Does SSA account for this, I thought it was just total length, not indivisual hole length.

SSA is the score that produced a 1000-rated round in a sanctioned tournament. It factors in everything that effects scores.

SSE is an estimate based on total course length, foliage, and whatever. Often a pretty good one.

 

[scarpfish]

Something you all are forgetting is what will equal a 1000 rated round is very dependent on something that has nothing to do with the course. Namely, the group of players who will be playing it, and who amongst that group are the propagators.

You also have to consider that with penalties factored in, the number in a player's score, (from which a rating is derived) doesn't always equal the number of times they threw a disc. Two players can finish with a 54 in radically different ways.

 

[DavidSauls]

I didn't want to wander off that way.....only to answer that SSA involves more than length, or length & foliage.

 

[Halcón]

I thought that was a myth, Scarp. ??

If the SSA is established, how does that affect subsequent rounds? I guess I've read that conditions affect the rating, but I'm not sure how it works exactly.

Edit: Oops, were we not supposed to wander?

 

[New013]

I don't know what they changed the SSE formula to now but according to the original implementation a flat wide open course would have to have an average hole length of 445ft.

 

[Dan Ensor]

I don't know what they changed the SSE formula to now but according to the original implementation a flat wide open course would have to have an average hole length of 445ft.

Yeah, but that accounts for pros hitting 10% from 80' or something. They aren't expected to do hit any particular 80' putt, though.

While SSE/SSA are useful tools for this discussion, they are not the answer to the question.

I might have had another "morning moment" explaining that too, but this is about what's expected on an individual hole which, on a course with 18 of them a pro would be expected to shoot 54 making only typical shots. Anything atypical, like a 30'+ putt, is accounted for in SSE/SSA, but not my question.

 

[Dave242]

While SSE/SSA are useful tools for this discussion, they are not the answer to the question.

I might have had another "morning moment" explaining that too, but this is about what's expected on an individual hole which, on a course with 18 of them a pro would be expected to shoot 54 making only typical shots. Anything atypical, like a 30'+ putt, is accounted for in SSE/SSA, but not my question.

Let me give you your "morning moment".

SSA = Scratch Scoring Average = what a 1000 rated player is expected to average on a course. So, if a course to provide the challenge "for a 54 to be a 1000 rated round" (quoted from the OP)....than is an SSA of 54.

SSE is a Scratch Scoring Estimate.

How again are SSA & SSE not the answer to your question? (quoted here vvvv)

If the course were all the same distance holes, what distance would those holes have to be for a 54 to be a 1000 rated round?

The SSE formula uses the "typical shot" criteria you want to use: 355' average throw, and then 1.67 throws to clean up. What the 445' is telling you is that 1000 rated players average 1.67 throws to "clean up" from 90' (445'-355').

 

[jeverett]

Yeah, but that accounts for pros hitting 10% from 80' or something. They aren't expected to do hit any particular 80' putt, though.

While SSE/SSA are useful tools for this discussion, they are not the answer to the question.

I might have had another "morning moment" explaining that too, but this is about what's expected on an individual hole which, on a course with 18 of them a pro would be expected to shoot 54 making only typical shots. Anything atypical, like a 30'+ putt, is accounted for in SSE/SSA, but not my question.

Yes, SSE (and SSA) vs. total course length is one way to approach this kind of question, but definitely it only overlaps the question Dan Ensor is wanting to answer. SSE/SSA can estimate a total course layout length (and by extension an average hole length) at which a 1000-rated player *averages* 3's on every hole. This method of course relies on a huge number of averaged variables, in particular a huge number of rounds, events, and courses, and doesn't really address the question of, at what specific hole length is a 1000-rated player *certain* to only get 3's? Or get very very close to an all-3's round, at least.