Course design frustration.

[bbwrenn]

The problem with most players who are saying we don't need relatively easy and short courses is they don't understand that short courses don't have to be bad, and they also don't understand that beginners are the lifeblood of any free public activity because the more people play the more courses will go in.

If you want to start a crusade to make sure courses are well-designed, go for it, because that's a worthy pursuit. But if you think we don't need short and easy, well-designed courses in disc golf then you're wrong.

Another thing to keep in mind is most players on here take the game pretty seriously. That means we have the mentality that keeps us playing even when we do poorly. The average player isn't going to have that. If you want the game to stagnate where it's at as far as new courses, that'll work. In order to keep getting more and better courses, though, we should actively pursue giving new players a choice that's fair and challenging for throwers under 200 feet, so they can learn to make unique shots and shape lines at THEIR distance levels.

 

[sisyphus]

Golf has putt-putt. No harm in having family-friendly pitch & putt courses in disc golf. It would be real nice if they were clean, fun, safe, and family friendly.

One of the 'problems' with disc golf is that we have courses like Woodland Mound, put in by Steady Ed about 35 years ago, which has not only 'shortened' with newer disc technology, but has also opened up with tons of tree removal. It's now a dangerous place when you combine huge popularity because of its relative ease, with young chuckers who overhand ace run every hole, even when there's a family with a six year old crossing their own fairway 20 feet past the chucker's basket. :thmbdown:

In a dream world, that park would have a nine hole 'Tiki' style course for the kids, the old favorite that's there now, plus a competition level course. This argument might be about scarce resources and park approvals. While the competitive disc golfer wants more tourney-ready courses, we need to realize that the smaller courses might just 'grow the sport' faster, so we can step up to the big time sooner?

 

[vslaugh]

This has really been bothering me since I moved to PA. The way the courses are designed are killing the sport. When a newbie starts if they play like garbage and have trouble even shooting triple bogeys they are not having fun and aren't going to play again. Many courses are designed by advanced players. They design the courses for them alone. When your "Rec" tees are 650 ft around a hard right turn then through tunnel Forest, no new player will have fun
I helped build the next course for worlds it's on a big college campus so there's potential for many new players. We made 3 tee pads. 1 for beginners. I remember 1 specific hole was 500 up a super steep hill with a 10ft high barbed wire fence 30ft to the right. I said "isn't this a bad spot. New players are going to lose countless discs over that fence" they told me "well they shouldnt throw over the fence or they shouldn't play" that person designed 12 courses near me.
Course designers need to stop being egoistic *******s. You wonder y few women play. What girl is going to want to throw at a hole 600 ft when they throw 50ft. They will never come back. If there were easier courses or holes beginners would have more fun and come back. When I first started there was a 9 hole really nice course. Some holes were 124 ft par 3 with 1 little tree in the way. I got addicted because it was fun.
Stop building courses for yourselves and start thinking of the big picture. New players barely throw 125ft. Do you think they have fun playing with intemediate players who take them playing when the intermediate players have to wait for the beginner to throw 4 times before they catch up to the intermediates first throw? No.

Clearly, you are upset about Hole 7 at Slippery Rock. Slippery Rock is under construction and will have three sets of tees, include green for beginners. Yes, Hole 7 (old Hole 6) is steeply uphill and plays 500-600'. But it's a Par 5 and only one hole out of eighteen. I think completing it could still be fun for beginners as a badge of courage, and it offers the reward of a really cool Hole 8. The fence should not come into play from the green tees like it could with the white and gold tees.

In an ideal world, there could be abundant beginner courses and gold-level courses. However, comprises have to be made if you want both in one course, which Slippery Rock does if it wants to benefit from hosting worlds and future tournaments and all the PFDS volunteer efforts. I think Deer Lakes and Moraine set a standard for multi-level layouts, and expect Slippery Rock to continue that standard. Furthermore, PFDS maintains Schenley Park in Pittsburgh (the most densely populated part of the PFDS region), which is fantastic for beginners as it has the 125' holes that you speak of.

Your volunteering to help install the course is commendable. However, you might want to reconsider how you criticize a great man and great designer well-known and respected throughout the region in an online forum.

 

[BionicRib]

Move to Chicago.....if you can throw 250 and putt you'll have a blast

 

[Hampstead]

I am of the opinion that courses should be designed with long and short tee options in mind. To a degree, I understand some of what the OP is talking about. Some (but not all) course designers seem to forget to make their courses accessible for a variety of skill levels. There has to be a middle ground between championship caliber and pitch and putt courses.

Of course, it also depends on the location of the course and the available options nearby. You have to be aware of your target audience. If the course is in a State Park where you are more likely to get families and rec level players, it doesn't make much sense to design a course for 950+ rated players without the option of short tees as well. If you have an abundance of 9-hole and pitch and putt courses in the area, then it shouldn't be a problem if a course is designed with the advanced player in mind.

 

[scarpfish]

There are a lot of problems with making short pads on long courses. 1 is the additional maintainence. I think a perfect situation is instead of having 1 course with 3 tee pads, you have 3 courses all different levels.

Additional teepads on the same course constitute extra maintenance, but two separate courses which would assumably mean more land don't? Not seeing your logic there.

 

[bbwrenn]

Sisyphus, are you Jeff that I played with in rounds 1 and 2 in Blowing Green? I'm Brandon, the big kid with the wild hair that can throw 400 feet but can't putt for beans. Good to see you again. :hfive:

The kind of course you're talking about is a lot like a relatively local one for me in Raleigh, the old, famous Kentwood. Kentwood gets ragged by long time players but it's a great pitch and putt that rewards 2 things: learning to throw straight and making putts. It's a course that can make a player become great under 300 feet and feel good about their game. It's a necessity. Hole 1 is exactly what you said though: 30 feet to the right of the fairway is a huge children's jungle gym/play area. Bad combo.

But the fact is we need Kentwood so kids, and adults, will learn this game, if we want to see more Highbridge Hills and Moraine State and Milo McIver's out there. I don't want to play Kentwood every day, but I don't see how someone can argue against fair, fun, short courses continuing to be put in on property that can't hold something better... particularly in an area that doesn't already have one or more of them.

 

[wakefield724]

Wow, talk about a blanket statement.

Don't project your weak mental game on every noob just because you can't hack it.

I throw 400ft, and been putting 200-300 times a day. I been playing for 3 years and I don't have difficulty on courses. I like to promote the sport and bring people who never played before. I get frustrated because I see many people quit and we lose potential popularity. As for weak mental game you can say that to my college football championship ring, my Mma and boxing champion belts, and my BJJ championship trophy.

 

[Future_Primitive]

The volume of trash and tree damage gets confinded to the courses where those people congregate.

Additional teepads on the same course constitute extra maintenance, but two separate courses which would assumably mean more land don't? Not seeing your logic there.

It appears he would prefer it if the casuals and chuckers had their very own short course to destroy while leaving the longer, more challenging course to the serious players I believe.

 

[Halcón]

There is no easy answer. That's why I take my hat off to the designers, builders, and volunteers who make a high quality, safe, beautiful courses that everyone can enjoy.

 

[wakefield724]

I like challenging courses. I also liked challenging courses when I was a terrible player.

I want to see harder courses. Long holes, lots of water, lots of OB, lots of obstacles. The only thing I do find un-fun is courses that are so tightly wooded that only the best players in the world can hope to reliably navigate them. But even those courses are good for practicing control.

If beginners don't like a challenge, then yes, they shouldn't play. there are plenty of short easy garbage courses around. We don't need any more of them.

And up it the ******* who starts the problem. Great I'm glad your having fun as 10 people decided not to play again because they did terrible their first time playing. You and your small group of players can build hard courses and circle jerk all day as our sport has no movement in popularity. If beginners don't like a challenge then they shouldn't play??? Your an idiot. How about I throw some pads on you and throw you in a nfl game when you have no training and are unprepared? That's not really a challenge is it more of setting up for failure. Maybe if you started at a lower level you could grow into it like every other sport. N

 

[Hampstead]

I throw 400ft, and been putting 200-300 times a day. I been playing for 3 years and I don't have difficulty on courses. I like to promote the sport and bring people who never played before. I get frustrated because I see many people quit and we lose potential popularity. As for weak mental game you can say that to my college football championship ring, my Mma and boxing champion belts, and my BJJ championship trophy.

 

[allinpflop]

I think that OP is way off base when describing Pittsburgh courses in general....Deer Lakes and Moraine the 2 most recently completed world class courses have 3 tee pads each and they have been proven to be designed for a wide range of abilities. I understand we don't have many of your typical pitch and putt courses that you see in other parts of the country but that doesn't mean a newer player couldn't still enjoy playing and learning the game at these courses from the shortest tees. With the exception of the water carry at Deer Lakes the short tees at these 2 courses do a great job of limiting risk of a lost disc or the frustration of having to throw hundreds and hundreds of feet to make a par.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The irony here is that J. Gary and Co. who have designed and built most of the courses in the Pittsburgh area are some of the most progressive in the country building courses with multiple sets of tee pads to serve a wide range of players, more than many U.S. locations. The separate issue here is having hazards on any course regardless of level where players will lose discs permanently whether over barbed wire fences or deep water. Ideally, only the highest level of player/tees should have these types of hazards in the regular play area.

 

[DatRedDude]

And up it the ******* who starts the problem. Great I'm glad your having fun as 10 people decided not to play again because they did terrible their first time playing. You and your small group of players can build hard courses and circle jerk all day as our sport has no movement in popularity. If beginners don't like a challenge then they shouldn't play??? Your an idiot. How about I throw some pads on you and throw you in a nfl game when you have no training and are unprepared? That's not really a challenge is it more of setting up for failure. Maybe if you started at a lower level you could grow into it like every other sport. N

Your analogy is horrible, just plain horrible.

Glad you throw 400 feet and have so many trophies and a ring. Kudos on that. Maybe if you have time you can tell us all more about how bad ass you are. :clap:

Those ten people who decided not to play today because the course was too hard are 26 less beer cans i have to pick up.

 

[1978]

And up it the ******* who starts the problem. Great I'm glad your having fun as 10 people decided not to play again because they did terrible their first time playing. You and your small group of players can build hard courses and circle jerk all day as our sport has no movement in popularity. If beginners don't like a challenge then they shouldn't play??? Your an idiot. How about I throw some pads on you and throw you in a nfl game when you have no training and are unprepared? That's not really a challenge is it more of setting up for failure. Maybe if you started at a lower level you could grow into it like every other sport. N

What an attitude. You post an opinion and get mad when most of the responses have experienced the opposite. Many courses just are not appropriate for beginners. They should have a beginner course to try. Most current disc golfers (in a sport that is growing at 14% btw) started on a course well above their ability and found the sport challenging enough to strive to be better. One of our hardest courses Reniassance Park has the highest percentage of 1 disc players AND in Charlotte chuckers and beginners have a bunch of beginner friendly courses or courses with multiple layouts to choose from. Calling names, being agressive, and rude isnt going to change anything. PLEASE do not move down to Charlotte and try to "help" out here. I could only imaging having to deal with that attitude.

Lol, dumbest analogy every...NFL. Playing disc golf on a 600' hole as a beginner is in no way analogous to being thrown into a NFL game with no knowledge of football or training to be a football player. ALMOST no one starts golfing on a pitch and putt with 50 yard holes. almost every golf player starts on a true golf course where the "Ladies" tees are still challenging AND no self respecting new to the sport "man" would play from a ladies tee, regardless of their skill or experience. You are just way off base in your arguements.

 

[1978]

Your analogy is horrible, just plain horrible.

Glad you throw 400 feet and have so many trophies and a ring. Kudos on that. Maybe if you have time you can tell us all more about how bad ass you are. :clap:

Those ten people who decided not to play today because the course was too hard are 26 less beer cans i have to pick up.

I wonder what percentage of the 10 that decided not to play did because they came in contact with that lunatic?

 

[DatRedDude]

I wonder what percentage of the 10 that decided not to play did because they came in contact with that lunatic?

never met the guy but he scares me

 

[wakefield724]

What an attitude. You post an opinion and get mad when most of the responses have experienced the opposite. Many courses just are not appropriate for beginners. They should have a beginner course to try. Most current disc golfers (in a sport that is growing at 14% btw) started on a course well above their ability and found the sport challenging enough to strive to be better. One of our hardest courses Reniassance Park has the highest percentage of 1 disc players AND in Charlotte chuckers and beginners have a bunch of beginner friendly courses or courses with multiple layouts to choose from. Calling names, being agressive, and rude isnt going to change anything. PLEASE do not move down to Charlotte and try to "help" out here. I could only imaging having to deal with that attitude.

Lol, dumbest analogy every...NFL. Playing disc golf on a 600' hole as a beginner is in no way analogous to being thrown into a NFL game with no knowledge of football or training to be a football player. ALMOST no one starts golfing on a pitch and putt with 50 yard holes. almost every golf player starts on a true golf course where the "Ladies" tees are still challenging AND no self respecting new to the sport "man" would play from a ladies tee, regardless of their skill or experience. You are just way off base in your arguements.

You actually just proved my point. There should be a beginner course where people can develop skill. When they get good and get bored of that course they can play the harder course. And you said most discgolfs started on intermediate or advanced courses. Yep your right. That's why there aren't many disc golfers. There are so many ppl who never come back. How bad is it that you know all the players in your area. It could be there are so many players that you meet new ones all the time. How many times have you heard "what's disc golf". Our sport is not very popular. You can say it is but it's really not. With no begginer courses in a region I think we are killing potential growth. I'd love to see dg grow much faster. Become a Olympic sport maybe. Make it so ppl aren't puzzled when you tell them it's when you throw frisbee like objects in a basket with chains.

I'll be glad with picking up more beer cans if that means more people are playing and growing the sport.

 

[Jukeshoe]

And up it the ******* who starts the problem. Great I'm glad your having fun as 10 people decided not to play again because they did terrible their first time playing. You and your small group of players can build hard courses and circle jerk all day as our sport has no movement in popularity. If beginners don't like a challenge then they shouldn't play??? Your an idiot. How about I throw some pads on you and throw you in a nfl game when you have no training and are unprepared? That's not really a challenge is it more of setting up for failure. Maybe if you started at a lower level you could grow into it like every other sport. N

WOW.

Maybe you need to roid it back up and get back out on the football field, Champ.