A Quick Thought on The Power Pocket

[Discusted]

So the key to more snap is to use the wide-rail motion? Can someone post a diagram?

 

[rhatton1]

Some of the descriptions could use updating but this and SW's to down of KY from earlier show it in action - https://imgur.com/Alq70Di

 

[rhatton1]

I always teach Snap or the "hit" first - Brad's closed shoulder snap drill is the best around at producing a solid, functional hit that can be added to. But once that is there lower body mechanics have to also be utilised to gain maximum distance.

There was lots of good info from way back in the day (working from the hit back (not right pec drill) was a video long before Dan Beto was filmed doing it- I wish i could find the original!) but not the true understanding behind it, lots that was taught in the early 2000's turned out to create more bad habits than it solved despite there being some good fundamentals in there, this has been admitted by people like Feldberg who i believe regrets now some of the stuff he taught then. The ability to teach and show it was lacking in most areas especially on line without someone to immediately give feedback on what you were doing wrong.

In my head DGR started to change that, most importantly it taught "snap" Brad and Blake found ways to teach the "hit" that just hadn't been understood previously by people not doing it and those doing it couldn't work out how to teach it or why others didn't just "get" it. "well, you just, like, um, snap it?"

Sidewinder and HUB and others on DGCR in the last 5 years have added the missing key to the incomplete sekret technique. Balance and posture are what take that efficient hit and turn it into 500' + power. Danny Lindahl over the last couple of years has then put that info into superbly watchable videos in short segments that have a greater appeal. As much as I love everything filmed in Sidewinders murder dungeon it's not too everyones tastes! I look forward to the next pioneering videos or whatever the new technology is that take disc golf coaching on further

This is standing on the shoulders of giants stuff, let's not lose sight of that, I really hope Bradley as one of those giants comes back to this discussion, just like working from the hit back, each jump forward has been based on the solid foundation laid before by the previous generation of posters, some avenues taken have been rabbit holes, and we all look back at stuff we have taught and think why on earth did i write/say that but the base of good stuff keeps getting bigger and added too and there really aren't many excuses for anyone with the will and time to learn to not succeed as result.

 

[rhatton1]

WRT to the above diagram, what I hope you pick up from that Discusted is the sudden rotation (watch the stamps position in a tiny space of time it pivots around 270 degrees) on the disc through the "hit" caused by the closed shoulder keeping the hand on the outside of the disc for as long as possible, this coupled with the change of angle in the wide rail leads to a massive and sudden redirection of the disc allowing it to eject far faster than the hand is moving (it basically slingshots around the grip)

The key to the full hit is making that an active motion rather than passive, so with the thumb push and wrist roll under you can, when timed right, push the disc into the hit and then pull it through, this active hit though is one of the things though I wouldn't focus on at all until you have the solid lower body fundamentals as focusing on all that stuff is more likely to lead to bad habits than ground breaking changes. Trying out th Wide rail though is well worth experimenting with as it helps to set up better lower and upper body positions (forces a more staggered stance and helps to keep the shoulder closed longer.)

 

[drk_evns]

I thought the brace absorbs the power from weight shift momentum but also transfers it to rotational energy. I always thought: more weight shift, more rotation.

It transfers the energy to your upper body and eventually your arm/wrist/the disc via a kinetic chain.

If you watch in slow motion, the back leg lifts off the ground and usually pushes forward after the weight shift, it only kicks around to the left because it's absorbing rotational energy from your follow through.

KJ's lack of motion just indicates extreme efficiency in transfer of power and follow through.

 

[Discusted]

Some of the descriptions could use updating but this and SW's to down of KY from earlier show it in action - https://imgur.com/Alq70Di

Thanks for posting this. Question about the wide rail from the experts around here... is it something that is displayed in most Pro's reachback and arc? Watching replays or highlights I seem to see a lot of straight reachbacks, although the arc does seem apparent.

Also, I've never heard a pro talk about anything other than a straight reachback in Disc Golf Clinic videos. Maybe it's something they naturally do that they are not aware of?

 

[drk_evns]

Thanks for posting this. Question about the wide rail from the experts around here... is it something that is displayed in most Pro's reachback and arc? Watching replays or highlights I seem to see a lot of straight reachbacks, although the arc does seem apparent.



Also, I've never heard a pro talk about anything other than a straight reachback in Disc Golf Clinic videos. Maybe it's something they naturally do that they are not aware of?

All throws should be wide-narrow-wide. Wide rail is technically present whenever you're not rounding, but there are more extreme examples like Nate Doss and Barry Schultz that people usually mean when they say wide rail.

 

[Discusted]

WRT to the above diagram, what I hope you pick up from that Discusted is the sudden rotation (watch the stamps position in a tiny space of time it pivots around 270 degrees) on the disc through the "hit" caused by the closed shoulder keeping the hand on the outside of the disc for as long as possible, this coupled with the change of angle in the wide rail leads to a massive and sudden redirection of the disc allowing it to eject far faster than the hand is moving (it basically slingshots around the grip)

The key to the full hit is making that an active motion rather than passive, so with the thumb push and wrist roll under you can, when timed right, push the disc into the hit and then pull it through, this active hit though is one of the things though I wouldn't focus on at all until you have the solid lower body fundamentals as focusing on all that stuff is more likely to lead to bad habits than ground breaking changes. Trying out th Wide rail though is well worth experimenting with as it helps to set up better lower and upper body positions (forces a more staggered stance and helps to keep the shoulder closed longer.)

Hmm thanks for the explanation. Even after the ARC starts it looks like the hand is still on the outside of the Disc up until the final 4 frames where it looks like the hand is coming around finally. Is this what you mean by keeping the hand on the outside of the disc for as long as possible?

WRT to "thumb push and wrist roll under": This is a motion created by an active wrist? So really were not just letting the wrist come along for the ride? I was under this impression for the RHBH throw. So thumb push down would be an ulnar deviation of this wrist and wrist roll under would be a pronation of the wrist? Are those the correct motions for "thumb push and wrist roll under"? And if so, when does this action start? Essentially right before the hit point or release point?

Also, one more question if you don't mind. In that diagram you posted it says "2. Shoulder pause". Does the shoulder rotation actually pause as the Disc enters the power pocket? I'm a little confused on this point and it seems like the shoulders rotate from reachback to the hit in one continuous motion.


Thanks for your time btw, I've also watched most of your YouTube videos

 

[Discusted]

All throws should be wide-narrow-wide. Wide rail is technically present whenever you're not rounding, but there are more extreme examples like Nate Doss and Barry Schultz that people usually mean when they say wide rail.

Hmm interesting, I looked up Nate Doss Slow Mo Drives after you posted that and can definitely see the wide rail in action. I feel like I've always pulled straight and tried to release straight without much of an Arc. Will be field practicing it this week for sure!

Here's footage of Nate Doss's Wide Rail if anyone else wants to see it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE1AA4Vvgsg

 

[rhatton1]

Yes basically. The longer you keep the hand on the outside the further forward you get with the disc before it pivots making the pivot more sudden/faster adding ejection speed and spin.

I had to go and watch a video to see what ulnar deviation is but yes forcing the thumb down and pronating the wrist THROUGH the hit can add extra oomph. So the motion starts as the disc starts to force it's way around, when you can no longer keep your hand on the outside you then actively push through. You have to have a very solid and repeatable form to be able to drill down to this moment and then add to it though, when you start to feel it it's almost like it all goes into slow mo, I often lose the feeling (at the moment playing so little I doubt I could find it) I find the closed shoulder snap drill really helps with finding it. Hammer pound drill is also useful in finding the feeling, the extra weight of the hammer really lets you know when you're starting to open up. Water bottle drill is also good for this and getting the pronation to time correctly (sidewinder has videos of both)

 

[Bradley Walker]

Mr. Walker, in your experience can a 50 year old man learn to throw 500 feet even off he never threw that far in his youth? I guess what I'm asking in your observations what are the upper limits for 50-60 crowd with good snap?

I am 51. I throw as far as I ever did. With less effort and better balance and less stress to my lead hip (which was really in bad shape when I quite a few years ago and spent 18 months in rehab).

When I came back 3 months ago I started over with going back to bare basics because I physically could no longer strong arm the disc.

I also made some disc choices and threw out almost all of my fast plastic. I replaced it with new plastic and I am glad I did. The new discs are better and have so much glide. Glidde is your friend.

I went to Hunter Park here in Tulsa the other day and threw a flex annie from the concrete to the highway fence. That is somewhere in the high 400s or 500 and it never flexed. If it had it would have been in the highway some 500-600 plus feet away.

If anyone knew me they would know why I think that throwing harder and harder and using more and more body is such a bad idea. Because I have lived the effects on my body. Something that a 20 something or 30 something does not consider. My right arm is also put together with screws... Something I don't tell everyone when they brag about out driving me

 

[Discusted]

Yes basically. The longer you keep the hand on the outside the further forward you get with the disc before it pivots making the pivot more sudden/faster adding ejection speed and spin.

I had to go and watch a video to see what ulnar deviation is but yes forcing the thumb down and pronating the wrist THROUGH the hit can add extra oomph. So the motion starts as the disc starts to force it's way around, when you can no longer keep your hand on the outside you then actively push through. You have to have a very solid and repeatable form to be able to drill down to this moment and then add to it though, when you start to feel it it's almost like it all goes into slow mo, I often lose the feeling (at the moment playing so little I doubt I could find it) I find the closed shoulder snap drill really helps with finding it. Hammer pound drill is also useful in finding the feeling, the extra weight of the hammer really lets you know when you're starting to open up. Water bottle drill is also good for this and getting the pronation to time correctly (sidewinder has videos of both)

Wow thanks for the thorough explanation. Can't wait to field practice this all.

A quick follow up question, that wrist action, ulnar plus pronation at the hit point, should that happen on every type of shot? For example hyzers, straight shots, and annhyzers would all improve power wise with that movement? Also, I'm imagining by doing this there could be issues with angle consistency. When you take a shot let's say hyzer angle shot, you set the angle wit your body and wrist. With this extra wrist movement do you now have to set up your shot to compensate for it to hold the hyzer angle you are trying to accomplish? Or does the wrist movement not actually affect hyzer/annhyzer/straight angles?

 

[slowplastic]

Wow thanks for the thorough explanation. Can't wait to field practice this all.

A quick follow up question, that wrist action, ulnar plus pronation at the hit point, should that happen on every type of shot? For example hyzers, straight shots, and annhyzers would all improve power wise with that movement? Also, I'm imagining by doing this there could be issues with angle consistency. When you take a shot let's say hyzer angle shot, you set the angle wit your body and wrist. With this extra wrist movement do you now have to set up your shot to compensate for it to hold the hyzer angle you are trying to accomplish? Or does the wrist movement not actually affect hyzer/annhyzer/straight angles?

If you stretch your hand out in front of you as far as possible, you pronate. Like in a punch. It's part of the extension. If you watch pro pitchers in slow motion, even on a fastball where the goal is straight-ish backspin, they pronate WAY more through the ball than a normal person...it looks like they are trying to throw a screwball in comparison.

IMO, from not having perfect form, don't try to do this. Let it happen if it wants to. If you aren't getting the right arcs, and aren't balanced and braced/anchored through the hit so your body doesn't drift, you likely can't do this. My understanding is that the pronation/extension lets you hold on longer and leverage longer, and in no way should take the disc off plane especially at the end of a shot.

It's like if someone tries to roll their wrist through a FH shot...bad times. But palm to sky 100% of the shot is bad advice and they get little extension. Let what happens happen I think, and if you can feel how to pull harder then do so.

 

[Discusted]

If you stretch your hand out in front of you as far as possible, you pronate. Like in a punch. It's part of the extension. If you watch pro pitchers in slow motion, even on a fastball where the goal is straight-ish backspin, they pronate WAY more through the ball than a normal person...it looks like they are trying to throw a screwball in comparison.

IMO, from not having perfect form, don't try to do this. Let it happen if it wants to. If you aren't getting the right arcs, and aren't balanced and braced/anchored through the hit so your body doesn't drift, you likely can't do this. My understanding is that the pronation/extension lets you hold on longer and leverage longer, and in no way should take the disc off plane especially at the end of a shot.

It's like if someone tries to roll their wrist through a FH shot...bad times. But palm to sky 100% of the shot is bad advice and they get little extension. Let what happens happen I think, and if you can feel how to pull harder then do so.

Good advice thanks for the explanation. I'm going to field practice the reverse K whilst continuing to work on better weight shift and balance first and see what results it yields. I'll experiment with the wrist action but I'll try not to make it the focus until I have other things set in stone.

 

[drk_evns]

I'm going to field practice the reverse K

We should just keep calling this wide rail to avoid confusion, right?

 

[Discusted]

We should just keep calling this wide rail to avoid confusion, right?

I'm good with calling it either/or as they are essentially the same thing. One thing I just thought though, does "wide rail" hammer down the point of a 45 degree pointed lower arm as well as the reverse K terminology might? I say this, because I've practiced the wide rail before with no real regard as to where my elbow is pointed at once it's in the power pocket position. :doh:

 

[drk_evns]

does "wide rail" hammer down the point of a 45 degree pointed lower arm as well as the reverse K terminology might?

Yeah. That's just the correct hit point.

 

[UhhNegative]

A quick follow up question, that wrist action, ulnar plus pronation at the hit point, should that happen on every type of shot? For example hyzers, straight shots, and annhyzers would all improve power wise with that movement? Also, I'm imagining by doing this there could be issues with angle consistency. When you take a shot let's say hyzer angle shot, you set the angle wit your body and wrist. With this extra wrist movement do you now have to set up your shot to compensate for it to hold the hyzer angle you are trying to accomplish? Or does the wrist movement not actually affect hyzer/annhyzer/straight angles?

You don't change your wrist at all based on the angle you want to throw. That's controlled by your torso angle, basically. In essence, lean over when you want to throw hyzer, lean back when you want to throw anhyzer. The wrist angle stays the same. And the arm relative to your body stays the same. Only the amount bent at the waist changes.

 

[Discusted]

You don't change your wrist at all based on the angle you want to throw. That's controlled by your torso angle, basically. In essence, lean over when you want to throw hyzer, lean back when you want to throw anhyzer. The wrist angle stays the same. And the arm relative to your body stays the same. Only the amount bent at the waist changes.

Right I know this. But I'm talking about what happens to that locked wrist angle when you incorporate an active wrist at the hit point release.

 

[UhhNegative]

Right I know this. But I'm talking about what happens to that locked wrist angle when you incorporate an active wrist at the hit point release.

Should be exactly the same. Since nothing is different about the upper body, there's no difference. If you could imagine a world where the only thing that exists is your body above your belly button, nothing would ever change.