Rules enforcement from top PDGA pros

[BillFleming]

The PDGA is not in the business of watching video for retroactive rules violations nor should it be. Were they to be contacted with a complaint then they would need to deal with it.

Excellent point. However, I would be surprised they aren't aware of it...especially since he even admitted taking 35 seconds and this doesn't seem to be the first time it has happened. Without saying anything publicly about it, the PDGA appears to be okay with it....so why shouldn't players 'break' that rule or not call it?

I think one of the issues with calling the infraction is that you have to have a majority of card mates agree and how many of them are keeping an eye on the time each player takes?

Example: Player A says "Niko you took more than 30 seconds". Niko says "no I didn't". Player A asks the others on the card "Did he take more than 30 seconds?" Players B and C say "I don't know, I really wasn't paying attention". So no penalty to Niko. It can be brought up to the TD, but what can the TD do? They didn't witness the time taken.

So I think this is one rule that unless it is really obvious that it has been broken, it won't get called. Maybe instead of being called, it gets mentioned as an aside to the player - "Hey Niko, you took over the 30 seconds allowed....could you please maintain the pace and throw in the allowed time?".

 

[robdeforge]

Excellent point. However, I would be surprised they aren't aware of it...especially since he even admitted taking 35 seconds and this doesn't seem to be the first time it has happened. Without saying anything publicly about it, the PDGA appears to be okay with it....so why shouldn't players 'break' that rule or not call it?

I think one of the issues with calling the infraction is that you have to have a majority of card mates agree and how many of them are keeping an eye on the time each player takes?

Example: Player A says "Niko you took more than 30 seconds". Niko says "no I didn't". Player A asks the others on the card "Did he take more than 30 seconds?" Players B and C say "I don't know, I really wasn't paying attention". So no penalty to Niko. It can be brought up to the TD, but what can the TD do? They didn't witness the time taken.

So I think this is one rule that unless it is really obvious that it has been broken, it won't get called. Maybe instead of being called, it gets mentioned as an aside to the player - "Hey Niko, you took over the 30 seconds allowed....could you please maintain the pace and throw in the allowed time?".

801.02 Enforcement

A warning is the initial advisement a player is given for violating certain rules; subsequent violations of the rule incur penalty throws. A call for a rules violation that results in a warning does not need to be confirmed to be enforced. Warnings do not carry over from one round to the next, nor to a playoff.

802.03 Excessive Time

A player who takes excessive time receives a warning for the first violation. A player who takes excessive time after having been warned for it during the round receives one penalty throw. See 811.F.5 for a player who is absent when it is their turn to throw.

I tried to clarify this earlier: "I definitely agree that calling time violations is difficult. However, the first is a warning and does not result in a penalty stroke so maybe Nikko would not have had any time issues after being warning the first time like he clearly should have been."

For what it's worth, I totally 100% agree that pros are in a bad situation in calling something like that. I agree with kevin jones that it'd be awkward to a) make the call (actually timing it) and b) dealing with Nikko after he is called on it

 

[BillFleming]

I tried to clarify this earlier: "I definitely agree that calling time violations is difficult. However, the first is a warning and does not result in a penalty stroke so maybe Nikko would not have had any time issues after being warning the first time like he clearly should have been."

I'm not sure Nikko would have cared. He is a pro and should know the rule. He said that he took his 35 seconds. Come on...."everyone" knows it is 30 seconds. He knows he's violating the rule. I don't believe he cares. Okay, he gets a warning and as you said, it doesn't have to be agreed upon....but that's all it is a warning. What's the likelihood that the card mates will be watching their watches/phones/timepieces when it's his turn? Not very likely....so it is doubtful there will ever be consensus by the card. I can see Nikko being called the second time and saying "Prove it - show me your stopwatches". "No stopwatches? Then it's your word against mine and I didn't take too long" And it would come down to that....unless you can prove it by stopwatches, seconds are subjective and hard to prove.

I think Nikko (and others who violate the time rule) know what they are doing, but they also know it is near impossible to enforce. Warning yes, enforcement/penalty no.

 

[krupicka]

IAnd it would come down to that....unless you can prove it by stopwatches, seconds are subjective and hard to prove.

I think Nikko (and others who violate the time rule) know what they are doing, but they also know it is near impossible to enforce. Warning yes, enforcement/penalty no.

No stopwatches are needed to enforce the rule. First time, one player gives him the warning. No second needed. Next time all that is needed is for two players to agree that the rule was violated and a penalty is assessed.

 

[zontar]

No stopwatches are needed to enforce the rule. First time, one player gives him the warning. No second needed. Next time all that is needed is for two players to agree that the rule was violated and a penalty is assessed.

this!!!

 

[robdeforge]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CCmxXigAhGN/

 

[autocrosscrx]

My competitive hobby is an amateur motorsport, which is also self-policed. Competitions are typically 2 days. After the first day's competition, you get the opportunity to look at your opponent's car and if you believe something is non-compliant with the rules, there is a protest process. What I've found that is that most people that decide to protest an opponent struggle with their own performance the next day, as it is a major distraction.

I think that is all that Kevin and Nate were saying. You can't really be focused on what you need to do if you are sitting there timing Nikko every shot.

 

[Streets]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CCmxXigAhGN/

Hahaha trolling all of the Karen's out there. Love it.

 

[Golden Tuna]

I like both of the guys, don't like this take, but at least they are up front about not wanting to call stuff. And I will concede that calling a time violation would not be ideal/fun, but an absolute refusal to acknowledge it is kinda lame IMO

I'm also surprised to see this from Perkins. I remember a filmed event last year where Perkins and Nikko were playing together and Nate audibly called Nikko on a temper tantrum. It was brief, I thin all Nate said was, "that's enough", but there was obviously more context to the situation than that one infraction.

Of course, calling someone on "that type" of courtesy is a little different than a time courtesy...

Can't.

Tournaments have enough trouble getting enough volunteers just to work as spotters. And usually volunteers aren't Rules Officials for the tournament. Remember....in the absence of a rules official, the card members have final say - if they aren't willing to call the infraction, then that's how it is. The 30 second rule is one that really only affects the players on that card.

I've seen, what appears to me, are more blatant and can have affected scores. Jump/step putting where the foot hits the ground in front of the marker before releasing the putt. Run ups where the front foot goes in front of the edge of the tee box before the disc is released. That extra distance can give an advantage.

I'm not a pro....but when deciding whether or not to call a penalty, the thought may be...does this affect the score/throw?

Going over 30 seconds is annoying, but really doesn't affect the score.
Jump/step putting and landing before releasing the disc lets you get closer to the basket and more likely to make the putt.

Unless the players on the card are willing to make the call, or you have a rules official or official timer with every group, timing every shot.....this is a rule that won't be enforced.

I generally agree that the PDGA "can't" do anything about this, and if they could, probably wouldn't. (I don't think) they want to get into policing players any more than is absolutely necessary.

The 30 sec rule can impact the whole field. It is harder for the TD to stick to a schedule when slow players create backups on the course. I think the spirit of "pace of play" rules are to help keep organizers on schedule...

The jump/step putts are impossible to call onsite. If this is really a problem, (I think) the "solution" is to restrict jump putts to outside C2, but that also creates more work for volunteers setting up events and is not always worth a walk off... Maybe C1 becomes 15 meters?... Not sure, but this doesn't bother me as mush as it does other people.

The most recent "famous" foot fault (I remember) was when Nikko tried to call Ricky, but couldn't get a 2nd from John-E or KJ Nybo. In that case, I think Ricky was guilty of an infraction because the change in position helped him navigate around a tree. However, in the cases you mention (off the end of the tee box) I'm not sure that really provides an advantage to guys that already throw over 400' with ease.

Lastly, a thought about competition and card mates enforcing rules. I think these guys are in their own head/game, especially at the highest level. So, getting out of your game to call another player on "non-critical rules infractions" can just as easily throw them off their game. Most people should have the decorum to pull the player aside during a walk up the fairway to make a comment, but I think most players to a cost to benefit analysis before calling the penalty. The other famous instance of a player enforcing this was when John-E was counting McBeth down while he was in the bathroom. PMB stepped up at second 28 and parked the hole. In this case, John-E was following the rules, but was considered a d!ck for doing so...

Calling these infractions is usually a loose/loose scenario...

 

[robdeforge]

I'm also surprised to see this from Perkins. I remember a filmed event last year where Perkins and Nikko were playing together and Nate audibly called Nikko on a temper tantrum. It was brief, I thin all Nate said was, "that's enough", but there was obviously more context to the situation than that one infraction.

I'm about 99.9% sure it's during this round, but I skipped through a bit and couldn't find it. so instead here's a clip from the round I'm talking about where Nikko gets mad at somebody for saying "good putt"

 

[fish58320]

I think at the core of this issue is that there's a culture problem with calling someone on ANYTHING in disc golf.

Playing Pro, there's not a whole lot that happens that's worth calling. Someone might argue for a better spot on their OB lie, someone might take too long or have an outburst, but for the most part, the game runs itself. I've called three foot faults in my entire career, had one called on me, given Mike Moser a courtesy warning, and given some "informal" warnings to someone for being a distraction. That's it in 8 years. A formative interaction I've had on a card was with Janne Hirsimaki at USDGC in 2014. He gave a griping Matt Orum a courtesy warning after hole 11 quietly and professionally, without making a big deal out of it for the small gallery. Matt wasn't happy, but wrote it on his card and that was the last I heard of it.

Counterpoint, in 2019 I played on a mixed first-round card and it was the friggin' wild west. MA3 player, first tournament ever, walks up and asks if we mind if he plays some music. He didn't know how to mark his disc correctly, or that he couldn't throw from beside his disc. I'm not going to call someone on stuff like that; he might never throw again. But I definitely clearly and concisely explained what he can and can't do, and encouraged my cardmates in MA1 and MA2 to be aware of what was happening and to help teach the MA3 player.

The "culture problem" is that the PDGA codifies the rules, but the community messaging is that it's not okay to call anything. In some cases (like the new stance violation rule) the penalty is more severe than the offense. The perception of someone who enforces the rules is that they are a narc, a stickler, a rules Nazi. I was on a card last year at BSF with Jordan Castro, Kevin Jones, and Anthony Barela. On the Philolbatross hole, Kevin stepped on his disc on a fairway shot. It was apparent later on video, but I couldn't tell when in the throw/follow-through it occurred, so I was uncomfortable seconding. I told Jordan that I supported him calling it, but couldn't verify it. Kevin didn't like the call, and the issue was eventually dropped. Later in the comments/elsewhere Jordan was getting skewered. I stuck up for him where I could but that's another aspect of community acceptance: who's going to call a step-putter when the consequence is getting hammered online and making the card uncomfortable thereafter?

What SHOULD be happening is that players are knowledgeable about the rules, can locate specific items in the rulebook, and enforce all of them neutrally and consistently. Similarly, when/if players violate the rules, they should have the expectation that the card enforces them, and humbly accept. How, collectively, do we achieve that? I think at some level it requires pros visibly putting themselves out there to make it okay/normal to enforce the rules, but also teachers/league directors/local players understanding the application and value of the rule set, and passing it along.

 

[Rastnav]

What SHOULD be happening is that players are knowledgeable about the rules, can locate specific items in the rulebook, and enforce all of them neutrally and consistently. Similarly, when/if players violate the rules, they should have the expectation that the card enforces them, and humbly accept. How, collectively, do we achieve that? I think at some level it requires pros visibly putting themselves out there to make it okay/normal to enforce the rules, but also teachers/league directors/local players understanding the application and value of the rule set, and passing it along.

I think this is probably underselling how difficult this is.

I know people don't like bringing ball golf in, but this isn't about emulation, but expectations. The penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard is a disqualification, a penalty that is incredibly severe. And yet there are consistently top pros who don't know the rules all that well.

Now ask players to not only know the rules, but also officiate them? That is a heavy lift, especially in a sport with an exceedingly casual approach to what seems like just about everything.

I'm not saying you are wrong (how could I begin to even know?) But I am saying I think it would require a deep cultural change at the bottom of the sport.

 

[Armus Patheticus]

What SHOULD be happening is that players are knowledgeable about the rules, can locate specific items in the rulebook, and enforce all of them neutrally and consistently. Similarly, when/if players violate the rules, they should have the expectation that the card enforces them, and humbly accept. How, collectively, do we achieve that? I think at some level it requires pros visibly putting themselves out there to make it okay/normal to enforce the rules, but also teachers/league directors/local players understanding the application and value of the rule set, and passing it along.

That isn't going to happen so long as no one respects the rule set. Understanding the application is easy. The rules are simple. All of the convoluted rules debates on this forum overstate their complexity, and are the result of lazy ignorance, poor reading comprehension, or fantasy hypotheticals. But the rules are not respected because their practicality can't be established. Rules about courtesy, alcohol, smoking, marking the lie, the stance, etc., are routinely ignored in all divisions (excluding, I assume, the biggest events, wherein eyes are on the players and consequences are the motive).

To the extent that a rule can be ignored with impunity, it does not exist. The only way to improve player enforcement (it will never be 100%) is to inspire the players by the elegance, justness, and practicality of the rules themselves.

 

[BillFleming]

In casual and league play, I don't call a penalty unless it is blatant and makes a difference (for example: standing in front of the marker/disc....standing to side of the marker/disc to be able to get around a bush/obstacle).

Mainly, I will just let the player know that if they play in a sanctioned tournament or league, that action would be a penalty. For example: I don't care if a player flips their disc to mark their lie if it is in casual or non-sanctioned league play....but I will let them know that it would cost them a penalty in sanctioned play. Some players don't know the rules and I believe discussing it with them will help them learn the rules before they are in sanctioned play and get penalized.

Disc golf is a 'trickle down' sport....if it isn't being called/done in sanctioned tournaments by the pros, why should I do it in casual/league play? If pro player Nikko takes over 30 seconds to throw almost every time...why shouldn't I take over 30 seconds? If a pro player is jump putting and lands in front of their marker/disc before releasing, why shouldn't I?

Enforcement needs to start somewhere.....but I do understand not wanting to make the call and the other card mates don't back it up...or not wanting to make the call as it is a minor infraction....or for some of the other reasons brought up, but it does have to start somewhere or why should the rule be followed at all?

 

[Armus Patheticus]

Mainly, I will just let the player know that if they play in a sanctioned tournament or league, that action would be a penalty. For example: I don't care if a player flips their disc to mark their lie if it is in casual or non-sanctioned league play....but I will let them know that it would cost them a penalty in sanctioned play.

Except it wouldn't. Marking rules are some of the most meaningless and often ignored. I have ignored them personally in every competition I've ever played and have never been penalized. In only one case has there even been any serious comment made, and that was a non-sanctioned event.

 

[robdeforge]

What SHOULD be happening is that players are knowledgeable about the rules, can locate specific items in the rulebook, and enforce all of them neutrally and consistently. Similarly, when/if players violate the rules, they should have the expectation that the card enforces them, and humbly accept. How, collectively, do we achieve that? I think at some level it requires pros visibly putting themselves out there to make it okay/normal to enforce the rules, but also teachers/league directors/local players understanding the application and value of the rule set, and passing it along.

thanks for the invaluable pro perspective and your examples. I'd completely agree with this section as well, but I wonder what the best way to get the bolded to happen... my vote would be for brodie smith and paul to make a PSA together about it, if only to reach a whole lot of people

 

[hiflyer]

Disc golf is typically played without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the player to show sportsmanship, integrity, consideration for other players, and to abide by the Rules of Play. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. Make the call. Accept the call. It's not personal; it's the rules. That is the spirit of the game of disc golf.

Im not seeing ANY integrity in not calling rules violations. Regardless of severity of rule or punishment, not calling a violation on someone because they are a little whiny co#&$ su#&$& bi$&$# shows a complete lack of integrity from ALL parties. Really though. Isn't the lack of call, blatant disregard for the rule, obvious attempt at circumventing a rule with false ignorance, and publically stating you would not follow a rule, cheating? Every person involved here should be DQd for the rest of the season. Maybe perma-ban from the sport? They are all easily replaced.

I guess I'll just keep playing for fun and not joining a tourney. Basically it comes down to "why am i going to pay to play a game with no rules enforcement and everyone can cheat?"
And thats the story anyone is going to get when they ask me about DG:
Just get out and have fun. But avoid any sanctioned tourneys, there's no real organization for this sport.

Damn. This sort of "ill pick and choose which rules I follow" bull malarkey absolutely pisses me off. F the pros. And the PDGA for not giving a crap about the "rules" they created.

 

[Armus Patheticus]

Im not seeing ANY integrity in not calling rules violations. Regardless of severity of rule or punishment, not calling a violation on someone because they are a little whiny co#&$ su#&$& bi$&$# shows a complete lack of integrity from ALL parties. Really though. Isn't the lack of call, blatant disregard for the rule, obvious attempt at circumventing a rule with false ignorance, and publically stating you would not follow a rule, cheating? Every person involved here should be DQd for the rest of the season. Maybe perma-ban from the sport? They are all easily replaced.

I guess I'll just keep playing for fun and not joining a tourney. Basically it comes down to "why am i going to pay to play a game with no rules enforcement and everyone can cheat?"
And thats the story anyone is going to get when they ask me about DG:
Just get out and have fun. But avoid any sanctioned tourneys, there's no real organization for this sport.

Damn. This sort of "ill pick and choose which rules I follow" bull malarkey absolutely pisses me off. F the pros. And the PDGA for not giving a crap about the "rules" they created.

The PDGA can't give a crap about the rules they created. They are unenforceable. Expecting everyone to voluntarily follow silly rules to the letter when no one who cares is looking and there are no consequences is not very realistic. Even expecting everyone to act with integrity by their own lights is asking too much. Some people are bad characters.

I routinely break several rules when playing tournaments, and yet hold absolutely to my own standards of integrity. I trust that there are enough of us playing with the same conscientious philosophy that the competition is fair enough. If cheaters gain an advantage, well, I'm not jealous of their reward.

No form of disc golf is or ever will be a serious matter. If you know this, it's impossible to get as worked up as you pretend to be over its problems.

 

[hiflyer]

No form of disc golf is or ever will be a serious matter. If you know this, it's impossible to get as worked up as you pretend to be over its problems.

Trooo-llio-llio
Oooollio-llio



It's neither the rules of DG nor seriousness, it's the cheating and disregard for rules coming from the "upper echelon."

 

[robdeforge]

The PDGA can't give a crap about the rules they created. They are unenforceable.

which rules are unenforceable?

I routinely break several rules when playing tournaments

which rules do you routinely break?