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Drive Leg Mechanics

Oh search feature, you work so good.

25ish seconds in there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyS3CUIYaCM

Tim makes a good example of an older style throw to me.



Hopefully brodie isn't actually trying slingshots stuff, he's got power.
And he can ruin it and himself with his stuff, but he's commenting in the videos.
 
This drive leg concept is helping me tremendously while working on Hershyzer to fix my x-step. Based on form critiques I'm not alone so here are some observations.

A lot of players appear to have trouble with the x-step transition because getting the ideal booty buttwipe and swivel with the legs in motion of flat ground is tricky. Part of the problem is getting a true CoG/butt-led lead into the plant with the dynamic rocking and swiveling etc.

As usual I had all kinds of confusion about this trying to find the right flow and leverage into the plant, so when SW shared this concept it was incredibly helpful.

In that image, the right edge of the green triangle shows the line from Simon's rear knee to his rear hip. The top line is the angle of his pelvis. The left line is the natural angle his striding front leg takes as he swings it into the plant.

I realized that part of my confusion was due to camera parallax when looking at players and how it relates to the lateral stride and leverage into the plant. Here's an example using what SW22 showed me, the overthrow montage from Simon, and SW22 doing Hershyzer 2.

oJ0pIe0.jpg


In the left image, Simon's front leg (right leg/the one that will plant) is deweighted as his CoG flows forward ahead of it into the X-step. At this angle, the triangle makes it's obvious that as his rear leg (x-step) is about to inherit weight, the rear hip is ready to inherit leverage from the ground. The rear ankle is "outside" the rear knee relative to the direction he is moving and his momentum along the ground. The triangle shows that the rear knee is leveraged just outside the rear hip, so as soon as that leg inherits his weight, it can start to laterally transition his butt-led stride directly into the plant in a (controlled) free-fall, further building up torque into the rear hip in the backswing as the CoG is moving forward. The parallax problem is e.g., when you look at the Overthrow montage, Simon is moving at ~20 degrees along the teepad to throw "flat and straight" (which is really 20 degrees to line of play and 20 degrees hyzer, quite like Drew). This makes it a little harder to eyeball where the leverage comes from relative to the hips and position of the CoG unless you already know what to look for. See the dashed white arrow for the relative trajectory Simon is moving along the ground and how his x-step scales with the distance he's throwing while the relative position of the triangle remains the same.

The second part of this that I misunderstood is how the plant stride really should ideally function relative to how the butt and CoG move. In the Hershyzer drill, if you set up so that you're "sitting" into the drive leg, then "presetting" the booty toward the target, you can start in balance and leverage off the ground with the rear leg/foot. That's roughly the same relative position you want body to be in when the rear leg inherits the majority of your weight in the x-step. If you remain closed to the target (i.e., booty-first) as long as possible, the plant leg will eventually-and very suddenly- reflexively swing out to catch you as you land. If you do it into a stagger closed stance, it makes it obvious how much power you can generate off the rear leg because you have so much mAss in front of the leg, and it adds a huge amount of potential leverage from the ground in its ideal position-because it's a leg.

So:
(1) the plant stride move is incredibly quick because it's ideally a triggered reflex and
(2) it can allow you to bring in a massive amount of force into the plant as you fall off the lateral stride at the last possible moment and
(3) the front leg can take a massive amount of impact just like jumping on one leg ('cause it's your leg and made for that) and transfer the ground force reaction into swing power.

I was surprised at just how heavy and abrupt a can crush can really be until he helped me fix my drill and now I can't get enough. It was psychologically hard to get my body to fully commit to a shift from behind off of the rear side bringing so much momentum into the plant. Drill it out. Exaggerate it.

Notice also that the plant leg maneuver is like sweeping through a ball with the foot, which will also be much faster and more powerful if you let the CoG fully lead the leg sweep. Simon scales his x-step with the amount of momentum he brings into the x-step, and the leg sweep through the ball scales with the stride/CoG lateral fall off the x-step.

This move is super cool.
 
More on pushing off the drive leg powerfully vs transitioning/dropping off it quickly.

Check out how Saquon Barkley's right leg ("drive leg" in this example) accelerates him into the initial plant/directional change with his left leg here.

Video url: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MyZ6643l4Y

EXK10re.gif

This is a great clip.

Watching Barkley right after the plant move in the full video there, his "ankle breaker" move is similar to the Iverson crossover (post 135).
 
More on pushing off the drive leg powerfully vs transitioning/dropping off it quickly.

Check out how Saquon Barkley's right leg ("drive leg" in this example) accelerates him into the initial plant/directional change with his left leg here.

Video url: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MyZ6643l4Y

EXK10re.gif
This is a great clip.

Watching Barkley right after the plant move in the full video there, his "ankle breaker" move is similar to the Iverson crossover (post 135).
Unfortunately(for me) watching that game, Barkley definitely reminds me of Barry more than any other rb since, but still not quite as quick and nasty.
 
Unfortunately(for me) watching that game, Barkley definitely reminds me of Barry more than any other rb since, but still not quite as quick and nasty.

These guys are great to watch. They're both awesome. To my eye the lateral movement is a big differentiator - Barkley can definitely put a move on a defender, but Sanders looks like he's shifting on a dime at will and absolutely floating. Can't think of anyone else whose legs move that fluidly side to side.

Watch the legs in the lateral jukes. Sanders' moves are so fluid that it was a little easier for me to see the shift mechanics in Barkley:

(NFL prohibits direct embeds)

Barkley highlights
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48QdMbEIfAY&ab_channel=7SzN.

Sanders highlights
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBhn1wMyzV4&ab_channel=NFL
 
Sanders is an outlier when it came to ability to move.

I'd argue that nobody on the field since has matched him yet.
It will surely happen again.

But nobody on the field has matched his intelligence yet either.
Cause he was like "alright, I got my money, see ya'll"

The rest of them are not the best "financial planners" so they need to keep playing cause they broke. hahaha

I forgot what football player it was that wrote a book on this. He talks about how everyone in his family started asking for money as soon as he got his first major contract. And how his family broke him because he was trying to help them out.
 
For anybody trying to kill ~ 45 minutes, NFL Films' "Barry Sanders: A Football Life" is one of the best, in my opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ARepw8RV6Q

As Sheep mentioned above, Sander's unexpected retirement was a classic Barry juke: he announced his retirement via his hometown newspaper, The Wichita Eagle, and the national media had to scramble to keep up. Sometimes I get a little tear in my eye hearing Barry read this line in the statement: "The reason I am retiring is simple: my desire to exit the game is greater than my desire to remain in it."

Published in The Wichita Eagle, 28 July 1999:

Barry-Sanders-Wichita-Eagle-Retirement-Statement.png



Additionally worthwhile is a read of the Hall of Fame enshrinement speech given by William Sanders, which begins: "First, I want to say hello to the greatest running back that ever lived, the number one running back that ever lived. He's not with us today, I think he's with his family in Los Angeles - Mr. Jim Brown. So, I want to say hello to him."

Full text here:

https://www.profootballhof.com/news/2005/01/news-barry-sanders-s-enshrinement-speech-transcript1/
 
Long time lurker, first time poster! Appreciate all the depth of knowledge on this forum. Its helped me improve greatly over the last 2+ years.

I've been working on drive leg mechanics a lot recently to try and correct some flawed form which led to an elbow injury in my dominant arm. Following this thread triggered some thoughts which I tested in the field yesterday. A few questions on this concept from my practice:

Regarding the timing, I notice in video of my own form, I tend to rotate back (backswing) mainly balanced over the drive leg, but I notice that I reach the peak of the backswing with the tibia of my drive leg still mostly vertical (almost 90 degrees). I then believe I am leaning forward slightly with my upper body to try to transfer my weight because my plant stride is already outracing my COG (reaching instead of hershyzer).

When I compare this to pro form, it seems that they begin to drive ever so slightly before beginning their backswing which keeps their COG more towards their plant in the correct timing. A visual cue I am noticing to check for is their tibia is angled towards the lead hip well before peak of the backswing occurs. Am I correct in looking at that leg angle as a good indicator of when the "shift from behind" sequencing should occur?

The second thing I noticed in the field, was I was getting much more spin and speed when I intentionally focused on thinking about my drive leg force being applied as low and horizontal to the ground as possible in the target-ward direction (preventing some of my tilting issues). I saw good results from this, but I'm wondering if this is pushing me towards more of a "horizontal" force pattern vs. a vertical one. Is their a difference in the direction of the force applied from the drive leg in a vertical pattern vs a horizontal one? Even in videos of GG and Brinster, they seem to achieve the tibia angle I mentioned well before peak of the backswing which leads me to believe there is still a significant horizontal component to their drive leg force.
 
Long time lurker, first time poster! Appreciate all the depth of knowledge on this forum. Its helped me improve greatly over the last 2+ years.

I've been working on drive leg mechanics a lot recently to try and correct some flawed form which led to an elbow injury in my dominant arm. Following this thread triggered some thoughts which I tested in the field yesterday. A few questions on this concept from my practice:

Welcome to the party :hfive:


Regarding the timing, I notice in video of my own form, I tend to rotate back (backswing) mainly balanced over the drive leg, but I notice that I reach the peak of the backswing with the tibia of my drive leg still mostly vertical (almost 90 degrees). I then believe I am leaning forward slightly with my upper body to try to transfer my weight because my plant stride is already outracing my COG (reaching instead of hershyzer).

On Tibia - maybe depending on the camera angle. I like to look at Ricky for questions like that:




When I compare this to pro form, it seems that they begin to drive ever so slightly before beginning their backswing which keeps their COG more towards their plant in the correct timing. A visual cue I am noticing to check for is their tibia is angled towards the lead hip well before peak of the backswing occurs. Am I correct in looking at that leg angle as a good indicator of when the "shift from behind" sequencing should occur?

Once the rear leg begins to take weight/resist the ground it forms a structure for you to backswing against. This same flow happens when you walk or run, trick is figuring it out when moving more laterally to heave the disc back or move past the disc.

For the second part, I think it's good to look at leg angles and the trick is to get them to move better without focusing too much on the legs alone - gotta swing/rock with the body.

The below image is based on a little mockup I expanded from one I did for NDK's form thread comparing how some of the hip action and lateral leg leverage related to one another. You can look at the Paige video linked there and below to see how her knee moves as soon as her foot hits the ground. Notice that as her x-stepping rear leg makes contact her rear knee is oriented out/away from the target. From this camera angle it then appears to swing targetward in the next image- that's because her rear leg is leveraging into her hip toward the target. As her backswing completes in the third image- look for it in the video - the rear knee swivels just a bit away from the target again before completely deweighting as she enters the plant. This is part what I was referring to in my answer to the backswing question you had above. Watch closely and then go back up and watch for it in Ricky again.

k6XD1Pa.png




This action is less confusing to me conceptually now, but it's not easy for most of us to find the ideal leverage at first. It really is the same thing in transition as Figure 8 standstill action, but you have that dynamic move/momentum coming in and it can be hard to master for many of us. IMHO you should NOT start by trying to micromanage the legs/knees themselves (I got hurt that way) - learn the movements that help them work more naturally together.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3743493
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133543





The second thing I noticed in the field, was I was getting much more spin and speed when I intentionally focused on thinking about my drive leg force being applied as low and horizontal to the ground as possible in the target-ward direction (preventing some of my tilting issues). I saw good results from this, but I'm wondering if this is pushing me towards more of a "horizontal" force pattern vs. a vertical one. Is their a difference in the direction of the force applied from the drive leg in a vertical pattern vs a horizontal one? Even in videos of GG and Brinster, they seem to achieve the tibia angle I mentioned well before peak of the backswing which leads me to believe there is still a significant horizontal component to their drive leg force.

We'd have to see video but this sounds to me like you're risking picking up habits compensating for the tilt issues rather than aiding them - the tilt and leg and stride action all should work as a unit and depend on each other.

On horizontal/vertical - in terms of overall form, those forces can both apply and the individual form will vary. But from the drive leg specifically I do think you're right that the big guns are all getting a significant horizontal component even if the overall force (of the whole body dropping) is very vertical coming into the plant (e.g., GG). Like SocraDeez is showing with his Barkley example and SW22 teaches, I now think about drive legs in terms of "lateral as long as possible until you drop off of it into the plant." Like walking athletically sideways.

In my form thread while struggling through Hershyzer 2 SW22 said to me:
After I get seated into my setup position, I move mostly horizontal and then late about to plant I drop vertical suddenly as I fall off my leverage point. You aren't really sitting down into your setup position and swiveling your butt before you start moving horizontal so you are moving both vertical down and horizontal at same time and then you start rise just before the plant.

I think that makes more sense once you understand the context around it/why Paige's or other top throwers' legs move like they do - but this contains part of the anwser to your question.
 
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RE: more farting around on the drive leg's function or role.

I took advantage of some wintry weather over the holidays to of course see how far I could electric slide on some ice covered roads and walking paths. Drive leg function or role is exactly like the legs' transition from running on ice/momentum building to sliding on the ice. If you try to push off during the last "running phase" step, you slip out and leak slide distance/balance. If you transition/ drop off the last "running phase" step, you slide like a schoolkid. You should naturally do the latter without thinking if you attempt a "slide." Or at least my body does within the context of my own movement history.

Our ice has since melted but please give it a try if you have the opportunity and want to learn more about drive leg mechanics.
 
If you transition/ drop off the last "running phase" step, you slide like a schoolkid. You should naturally do the latter without thinking if you attempt a "slide."

I was going back through the One Leg Drill thread (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137378) and rewatched this Mike Austin video again. Is this what you mean by transitioning off the last step or dropping by letting the knee move to the inside so you are "opening the gate on the hinge."

 
After going through this thread I see that my back foot spins counterclockwise like sidewinder says it's not supposed to in the gas pedal video. How do I go about fixing that? Finally got away from having my back foot backwards to target but it isn't quite parallel bc I'm ER dominant so I think figuring this out is the next step. Definitely a knee slammer which is why I think it's turning out just don't know how to change that.
 
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And that's how Simon learned how to throw far.

Now that I think about it, he did have Happy Gilmore teach him. Makes sense that he took all that golf driving knowledge and translate it to disc golf.
 
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