Drive Leg Mechanics

[Jaani]

I do understand it's compelling to think and make theories and drills, but I honestly think you are making this waaaaay to complicated.

The back leg is there to make you fall onto front leg. After that you push the front leg down, deep into the ground and let the momentum make the hips turn. This is the best way according to most of the golf scientists. The pressure shifts from back to front before the backswing is even complete.

If you nake the overall pressure of the legs a 100%, the back leg has 100% of pressure before the front leg touches the ground. From there the pressure of the front leg should increase rapidly towards 100%. If you try super hard to PUSH of the back leg at this point, guess what happens? The pressure of the back leg increases. Yes, you can't push of the backleg and make it lighter at the same time. As long as you keep pushing from behind, the pressure stays on the back and never goes to front, aka BACK LEG DISC GOLF.

The only way to increase pressure on the front and decrease on the back is to push down on the front and let the back leg relax.

It is a lot simpler move than you make it sound, really. Just go down on the front leg, throw with the arm and don't fall over. That's it.

 

[Jaani]

Edit: fixed typos and cleared a few things.

I do understand it's compelling to think and make theories and drills, but I honestly think you are making this waaaaay to complicated.

The back leg is there to make you fall onto the front leg. After that you push the front leg down, deep into the ground and let the momentum make the hips turn. This is the best way according to most of the golf scientists. The pressure shifts from back to front before the backswing is even complete. And the moment of impact shows closer to 80% pressure on the front. In disc golf it is 100% for most, because the back leg is in the air.

Now: If you make the overall pressure of your both legs a 100%, the back leg has 100% of pressure before the front leg touches the ground. Yes?

From there the pressure of the front leg should increase rapidly towards 100%. Yes?

If you try super hard to PUSH off the back leg at this point, guess what happens? The pressure of the back leg increases. Yes, you can't push off the backleg and make it lighter at the same time. It is physically, anatomically and mathematically impossible.

As long as you keep pushing from behind, the pressure stays on the back and never goes to front, aka BACK LEG DISC GOLF. So, you have to choose whether you throw Slingshot style or the optimal style. Can't go both ways, really.

So: The only way to increase pressure on the front leg and decrease on the back leg is to push down on the front and let the back leg relax. You can't increase the pressure on the both legs. Or, I haven't found a way, other than standing on the ground and try to spread the legs, which I think is not the best way.

Again: It is a lot simpler move than you make it sound, really. Just go down on the front leg, throw with the arm and don't fall over. That's it.

 

[Brychanus]

If the "you" is "Brychanus", I agree. Though many form critiques reveal that many people have trouble doing it despite its apparent simplicity for one reason or another, and especially as they learn to x-step.

If the "you" is "Diskimees" or otherwise, I also agree. It's possible to overthink or micromanage details and miss the forest for the trees.

 

[Jaani]

"You" is meant for the general audience

I get like a 5 form checks per day and most if not all lean on the back leg and push from there towards and over the front leg. It feels powerful, because you use a lot of excess energy to do it. But in reality it's just slow and heavy.

The good thing is, you are most likely never to forget the feeling after you nail it down, and it becomes intuitive quickly after that. Only thing you need then is to develop the muscles so that you can execute the movement over and over again without collapsing.

 

[Brychanus]

"You" is meant for the general audience

I get like a 5 form checks per day and most if not all lean on the back leg and push from there towards and over the front leg. It feels powerful, because you use a lot of excess energy to do it. But in reality it's just slow and heavy.

The good thing is, you are most likely never to forget the feeling after you nail it down, and it becomes intuitive quickly after that. Only thing you need then is to develop the muscles so that you can execute the movement over and over again without collapsing.

I think from time "in the trenches" and countless checks at DGCR that's a general trend. I can also personally attest that the better move is unforgettable compared to the high-effort push and it can take some time to coax the body into doing it routinely if you had the bad habit.

Re-quoting Jaani's last post so it doesn't get buried for now:

Edit: fixed typos and cleared a few things.

I do understand it's compelling to think and make theories and drills, but I honestly think you are making this waaaaay to complicated.

The back leg is there to make you fall onto the front leg. After that you push the front leg down, deep into the ground and let the momentum make the hips turn. This is the best way according to most of the golf scientists. The pressure shifts from back to front before the backswing is even complete. And the moment of impact shows closer to 80% pressure on the front. In disc golf it is 100% for most, because the back leg is in the air.

Now: If you make the overall pressure of your both legs a 100%, the back leg has 100% of pressure before the front leg touches the ground. Yes?

From there the pressure of the front leg should increase rapidly towards 100%. Yes?

If you try super hard to PUSH off the back leg at this point, guess what happens? The pressure of the back leg increases. Yes, you can't push off the backleg and make it lighter at the same time. It is physically, anatomically and mathematically impossible.

As long as you keep pushing from behind, the pressure stays on the back and never goes to front, aka BACK LEG DISC GOLF. So, you have to choose whether you throw Slingshot style or the optimal style. Can't go both ways, really.

So: The only way to increase pressure on the front leg and decrease on the back leg is to push down on the front and let the back leg relax. You can't increase the pressure on the both legs. Or, I haven't found a way, other than standing on the ground and try to spread the legs, which I think is not the best way.

Again: It is a lot simpler move than you make it sound, really. Just go down on the front leg, throw with the arm and don't fall over. That's it.

 

[RFrance]

I really liked this discussion. Not all of it is directly related to the disc throw but a lot is. Getting tension in the glute, coiling, forces from the ground up, etc. These three guys are upper 90's pitchers and do a great job of discussing how they get the feel and what works for them.

I found this (kind of long) TreadAthletics video called Back Leg Tension interesting.

I'm curious how much this applies to an X-step where you already have momentum. But baseball and ball golf are standstills or one steps.

 

[Mobtown Midranger]

I think from time "in the trenches" and countless checks at DGCR that's a general trend. I can also personally attest that the better move is unforgettable compared to the high-effort push and it can take some time to coax the body into doing it routinely if you had the bad habit.

Re-quoting Jaani's last post so it doesn't get buried for now:

Can anyone go into this a little more deeply? The aspect that Jaani mentions about "try not to fall over" has been the biggest hiderance for me. I seem to have a mental block where my "go down on the front leg" should be. Something prevents me from trusting that I'll be able to both plant and throw without hurting myself and I'm robbing myself of all of the good momentum that should be my ability to follow through. Is there a "building confidence to not seriously injure yourself drill? I know I'm working it up to be bigger in my head (or "waaaaay too complicated," as Jaani says). Help! (please). I want to graduate from being a "standstill" golfer.

 

[Sheep]

Thanks for the reply. It does make sense and also creates new questions.
Paige's drill becomes more confusing: is it about learning the brace then? Because she forcefully pushes her weight to the plant leg, but I should not do it forcefully even before the actual swing happens?

I'm not 100% sure which drill we are referring to, but let me first encapsulate with this.
99% of pro's have absolutely 0 reason to be giving lessons. They don't have a clue what they are talking about, they can barely explain what they are doing correctly let alone what a drill does.

They do have some insight for people who devote themselves to coaching though, as we can at least weed through the mud and figure out what they are attempting to mean.

There are some pro's out there who are pretty good practical coaches, but it's none of your top dogs, but they are elite level players.
Paul is the only top elite level player that is able to articulate any sort of coaching information, but its more on "how to play" not "how to throw."

I digress, I shall explain more below.

Can anyone go into this a little more deeply? The aspect that Jaani mentions about "try not to fall over" has been the biggest hiderance for me. I seem to have a mental block where my "go down on the front leg" should be. Something prevents me from trusting that I'll be able to both plant and throw without hurting myself and I'm robbing myself of all of the good momentum that should be my ability to follow through. Is there a "building confidence to not seriously injure yourself drill? I know I'm working it up to be bigger in my head (or "waaaaay too complicated," as Jaani says). Help! (please). I want to graduate from being a "standstill" golfer.

Drive leg Mechanics 101.

Were gonna start with this image. This is the basic idea of a brace/plant from the drive leg mechanics.

You're driving laterally into the brace and arresting the weight "BRACING" the throw to give it solid ground to drive back against.

This is why your "stagger" and "motion" across the tee pad are important to stop you from spinning out and to drive the brace into your throw, vs just stopping to change direction. We want the brace to initiate our rotation and drive the throw.

When you brace, your rear leg is done. All it is at that point is a counterweight. You don't want it flinging around, ala, "spinning out" and we don't necessarily wanna drag it like a boat anchor. It needs to hang back just enough, which it will do on its own if you're properly balanced and braced, to resist enough to drive the force up your body into the swing.

This is why its important for our off arm mechanics to be correct after that to continue to resist the rotation properly driving the swing.

This is why the "double move" is so dumb, and this "back leg throwing" is so dumb.
Your doing everything possible to spin really really fast while kicking your feet out from under yourself. All you're doing is spinning fast with no force.

Will this throw the disc? yes, but you've got no horse torques behind it. To properly drive power, you must brace properly.

There are 2 ways to do it, and 1 way is superior in my opinion.

You can drive the brace from your x-step. Or you can drive the brace from momentum.

Driving from your x-step requires better footwork and is far harder than using lateral energy down the tee pad in a "run up" which can allow for dirtier footwork.

With a driven brace from the x-step, your foot position must allow for you to drive powerfully into the brace and get the weight transferred. But you don't initiate the brace driving the knee down. that is wrong. That's a reaction to the brace and the hips turning. But you do want your foot to be at least 90° to the target line (ish) not open to the rear, because the knee has to be in a position to push towards the brace laterally then ... as I said, get out of the way, its job is done.

With a run up, you just do this with momentum. Which is easier and works.

However, I personally feel the drive mechanic is better vs the momentum mechanic.
And here is why.

someone who can drive the brace can also add in momentum without screwing up their swing harmony. While someone who relies on pure momentum,.... ie see conrad, cannot simply "add in" a mechanic they dont use as it will mess up their timing.

Neither method is wrong, and top level pro's all use combinations of these.

But Paul is a good example of how slow and steady he is with his throws and driving the brace. Simon as well. They both drive the brace.
But when its bomber time, they back up and add some speed to brace harder.



If a better explanation of the image/drill i posted is necessary. let me know and I'll bump a video out on it. but this is a standard sports drill, there isn't anything "unique" about it. Almost every sport practices this. It's to help you feel the lateral brace.

 

[bryantlikes]

If you try super hard to PUSH off the back leg at this point, guess what happens? The pressure of the back leg increases. Yes, you can't push off the backleg and make it lighter at the same time. It is physically, anatomically and mathematically impossible.

Just saw this today after reading through this thread.



Watch the whole video but wanted to highlight this point which I think adds an interesting point to this discussion:

https://youtu.be/f-Ftm-0ND9s?t=545

If you don't complete the turn (meaning get a full backswing) you get stuck on the back leg and you have to push off it.

 

[Jaani]

This is exactly the way I am teaching and trying to say. Just push to the ground and let it go.

 

[RowingBoats]

Can anyone go into this a little more deeply? The aspect that Jaani mentions about "try not to fall over" has been the biggest hiderance for me. I seem to have a mental block where my "go down on the front leg" should be. Something prevents me from trusting that I'll be able to both plant and throw without hurting myself and I'm robbing myself of all of the good momentum that should be my ability to follow through. Is there a "building confidence to not seriously injure yourself drill? I know I'm working it up to be bigger in my head (or "waaaaay too complicated," as Jaani says). Help! (please). I want to graduate from being a "standstill" golfer.

I'm still a standstill golfer. I guess I'd have to call it a one-step maybe, but no x-step or run-up of any kind.

I promise you can get the feeling from a simple swing. If you even vaguely do it, none of these thoughts will matter any more. When you are walking, do you feel that same apprehension like physics will suddenly be upended and you'll lose control? I know that sounds silly, but its comically relevant to how easy this does end up being.

For real play around with walking. Let your arms hang loose-ish, and exaggerate their swings and notice where you derive that power from. Get weird with seeing what walking around can do to your arms, and how subtle it is. It is THAT simple.

 

[Mobtown Midranger]

I'm still a standstill golfer. I guess I'd have to call it a one-step maybe, but no x-step or run-up of any kind.

I promise you can get the feeling from a simple swing. If you even vaguely do it, none of these thoughts will matter any more. When you are walking, do you feel that same apprehension like physics will suddenly be upended and you'll lose control? I know that sounds silly, but its comically relevant to how easy this does end up being.

For real play around with walking. Let your arms hang loose-ish, and exaggerate their swings and notice where you derive that power from. Get weird with seeing what walking around can do to your arms, and how subtle it is. It is THAT simple.

If, for nothing else, thanks for the confidence! I will spend some time walking around tonight after work with this in mind.

 

[Mobtown Midranger]

I'm not 100% sure which drill we are referring to, but let me first encapsulate with this.
99% of pro's have absolutely 0 reason to be giving lessons. They don't have a clue what they are talking about, they can barely explain what they are doing correctly let alone what a drill does.

They do have some insight for people who devote themselves to coaching though, as we can at least weed through the mud and figure out what they are attempting to mean.

There are some pro's out there who are pretty good practical coaches, but it's none of your top dogs, but they are elite level players.
Paul is the only top elite level player that is able to articulate any sort of coaching information, but its more on "how to play" not "how to throw."

I digress, I shall explain more below.

Drive leg Mechanics 101.

Were gonna start with this image. This is the basic idea of a brace/plant from the drive leg mechanics.

You're driving laterally into the brace and arresting the weight "BRACING" the throw to give it solid ground to drive back against.

This is why your "stagger" and "motion" across the tee pad are important to stop you from spinning out and to drive the brace into your throw, vs just stopping to change direction. We want the brace to initiate our rotation and drive the throw.

When you brace, your rear leg is done. All it is at that point is a counterweight. You don't want it flinging around, ala, "spinning out" and we don't necessarily wanna drag it like a boat anchor. It needs to hang back just enough, which it will do on its own if you're properly balanced and braced, to resist enough to drive the force up your body into the swing.

This is why its important for our off arm mechanics to be correct after that to continue to resist the rotation properly driving the swing.

This is why the "double move" is so dumb, and this "back leg throwing" is so dumb.
Your doing everything possible to spin really really fast while kicking your feet out from under yourself. All you're doing is spinning fast with no force.

Will this throw the disc? yes, but you've got no horse torques behind it. To properly drive power, you must brace properly.

There are 2 ways to do it, and 1 way is superior in my opinion.

You can drive the brace from your x-step. Or you can drive the brace from momentum.

Driving from your x-step requires better footwork and is far harder than using lateral energy down the tee pad in a "run up" which can allow for dirtier footwork.

With a driven brace from the x-step, your foot position must allow for you to drive powerfully into the brace and get the weight transferred. But you don't initiate the brace driving the knee down. that is wrong. That's a reaction to the brace and the hips turning. But you do want your foot to be at least 90° to the target line (ish) not open to the rear, because the knee has to be in a position to push towards the brace laterally then ... as I said, get out of the way, its job is done.

With a run up, you just do this with momentum. Which is easier and works.

However, I personally feel the drive mechanic is better vs the momentum mechanic.
And here is why.

someone who can drive the brace can also add in momentum without screwing up their swing harmony. While someone who relies on pure momentum,.... ie see conrad, cannot simply "add in" a mechanic they dont use as it will mess up their timing.

Neither method is wrong, and top level pro's all use combinations of these.

But Paul is a good example of how slow and steady he is with his throws and driving the brace. Simon as well. They both drive the brace.
But when its bomber time, they back up and add some speed to brace harder.



If a better explanation of the image/drill i posted is necessary. let me know and I'll bump a video out on it. but this is a standard sports drill, there isn't anything "unique" about it. Almost every sport practices this. It's to help you feel the lateral brace.

Thanks a lot for your detailed and thoughtful response. I suppose I should have mentioned that I'm middle-aged, not an athlete and still have less than a year's worth of experience playing disc golf. But I love the sport and jumped in feet first and want to continue to improve. Thanks for the explanation and the wisdom you bring to this community!!

 

[Mobtown Midranger]

This is exactly the way I am teaching and trying to say. Just push to the ground and let it go.

Thank you Jaani! Your comment has been a thornnin my brain since I read it. I will definitely keep it in mind moving forward!

 

[Mobtown Midranger]

This is exactly the way I am teaching and trying to say. Just push to the ground and let it go.

Thank you Jaani! Your comment has been a thorn in my brain since I read it. I will definitely keep it in mind moving forward!

 

[Sheep]

Thanks a lot for your detailed and thoughtful response. I suppose I should have mentioned that I'm middle-aged, not an athlete and still have less than a year's worth of experience playing disc golf. But I love the sport and jumped in feet first and want to continue to improve. Thanks for the explanation and the wisdom you bring to this community!!

The guys who pay me in person for lessons are guys like you. new to the sport, maybe an athletic background, maybe not.

Getting anyone to really go hard in the paint on the brace is difficult in general, so I usually focus on getting most of their body overall in time to some extent before really working on getting them to drive a harder brace.

Getting an older middle aged gentleman to do what is in the little movie image is ... really really difficult. hahaha

 

[RowingBoats]

If, for nothing else, thanks for the confidence! I will spend some time walking around tonight after work with this in mind.

Yep, doing silly simple things is what got it to click for me.

One of the barriers with this concept, is that it is very hard to un-feel, so it is hard to truly empathize with the process accurately.

Just walking in a straight line, but allowing for exaggerated rotation while doing it, generates the feeling that you want to work with. Swing both of your arms back and forth without trying to use your arms. You can notice so much doing this if you spend time on it. Notice that your next 'step' happens as your body is actually swinging the opposite direction of that foot. This is all how the 'lag' concept people talk about works, and should be accessible to anyone who can walk lol.

 

[Mobtown Midranger]

The guys who pay me in person for lessons are guys like you. new to the sport, maybe an athletic background, maybe not.

Getting anyone to really go hard in the paint on the brace is difficult in general, so I usually focus on getting most of their body overall in time to some extent before really working on getting them to drive a harder brace.

Getting an older middle aged gentleman to do what is in the little movie image is ... really really difficult. hahaha

The really really difficult part has been admitting that I'm middle-aged. Not sure when the hell that happened. But I'm still here so I might as well take advantage of it. Thanks again Sheep!

 

[Sheep]

The really really difficult part has been admitting that I'm middle-aged. Not sure when the hell that happened. But I'm still here so I might as well take advantage of it. Thanks again Sheep!

I'm here at 40 wishing a lot of things.

 

[semisensei]

Just saw this today after reading through this thread.



Watch the whole video but wanted to highlight this point which I think adds an interesting point to this discussion:

https://youtu.be/f-Ftm-0ND9s?t=545

If you don't complete the turn (meaning get a full backswing) you get stuck on the back leg and you have to push off it.

In disc golf, what indicates that a backswing is completed vs incomplete?