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Drive Leg Mechanics
- Thread starter sidewinder22
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Jaani
Bogey Member
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When the shoulders are fully turned?
RowingBoats
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I genuinely don't know how to answer this one. To me it doesn't feel like there is a moment where the backswing 'completes' and I begin an opposite forward swing. I am still feeling like I am reaching further away as I start to move weight forward.
It also doesn't feel linear to me. More of a continuum or figure 8 than a back/forth.
bryantlikes
Birdie Member
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I think it is fairly simple, you have to turn the shoulders and hips back enough that it is possible to drop and shift from behind.
He doesn't actually demonstrate the swings but he does show the two different shifts.
Looks like a proper shift from behind vs spinning out to me.
Also kind of explains why sometimes it feels like you're spinning out more when you do short upshots since the backswing is probably less complete.
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Mobtown Midranger
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I'll be 45 this year and didn't believe it when they told me how fast it goes, when I was 20 and don't want to believe it now. C'est la vie. My biggest regret is only discovering disc golf 8 months ago. I was invited the play almost 20 years ago and turned down the invite because I was intimidated by knowing there would be better, more experienced players.
Wishing I could go back and kick my 20-something self in the ass and tell him to take a chance.
Such is life.
Thanks again for your invaluable insight.
I bet drills still have valuable insights for coaching. Regarding drive leg mechanics, bracing from the drive leg provides a solid base for pushing against. I mean the rear leg becomes a counterweight, resisting rotation.I'm not 100% sure which drill we are referring to, but let me first encapsulate with this.
99% of pro's have absolutely 0 reason to be giving lessons. They don't have a clue what they are talking about, they can barely explain what they are doing correctly let alone what a drill does.
They do have some insight for people who devote themselves to coaching though, as we can at least weed through the mud and figure out what they are attempting to mean.
There are some pro's out there who are pretty good practical coaches, but it's none of your top dogs, but they are elite level players.
Paul is the only top elite level player that is able to articulate any sort of coaching information, but its more on "how to play" not "how to throw."
I digress, I shall explain more below.
Drive leg Mechanics 101.
Were gonna start with this image. This is the basic idea of a brace/plant from the drive leg mechanics.
You're driving laterally into the brace and arresting the weight "BRACING" the throw to give it solid ground to drive back against.
This is why your "stagger" and "motion" across the tee pad are important to stop you from spinning out and to drive the brace into your throw, vs just stopping to change direction. We want the brace to initiate our rotation and drive the throw.
When you brace, your rear leg is done. All it is at that point is a counterweight. You don't want it flinging around, ala, "spinning out" and we don't necessarily wanna drag it like a boat anchor. It needs to hang back just enough, which it will do on its own if you're properly balanced and braced, to resist enough to drive the force up your body into the swing.
This is why its important for our off arm mechanics to be correct after that to continue to resist the rotation properly driving the swing.
This is why the "double move" is so dumb, and this "back leg throwing" is so dumb.
Your doing everything possible to spin really really fast while kicking your feet out from under yourself. All you're doing is spinning fast with no force.
Will this throw the disc? yes, but you've got no horse torques behind it. To properly drive power, you must brace properly.
There are 2 ways to do it, and 1 way is superior in my opinion.
You can drive the brace from your x-step. Or you can drive the brace from momentum.
Driving from your x-step requires better footwork and is far harder than using lateral energy down the tee pad in a "run up" which can allow for dirtier footwork.
With a driven brace from the x-step, your foot position must allow for you to drive powerfully into the brace and get the weight transferred. But you don't initiate the brace driving the knee down. that is wrong. And here students get knowledge on anatomy and free essays on biology. That's a reaction to the brace and the hips turning. But you do want your foot to be at least 90° to the target line (ish) not open to the rear, because the knee has to be in a position to push towards the brace laterally then ... as I said, get out of the way, its job is done.
With a run up, you just do this with momentum. Which is easier and works.
However, I personally feel the drive mechanic is better vs the momentum mechanic.
And here is why.
someone who can drive the brace can also add in momentum without screwing up their swing harmony. While someone who relies on pure momentum,.... ie see conrad, cannot simply "add in" a mechanic they dont use as it will mess up their timing.
Neither method is wrong, and top level pro's all use combinations of these.
But Paul is a good example of how slow and steady he is with his throws and driving the brace. Simon as well. They both drive the brace.
But when its bomber time, they back up and add some speed to brace harder.
If a better explanation of the image/drill i posted is necessary. let me know and I'll bump a video out on it. but this is a standard sports drill, there isn't anything "unique" about it. Almost every sport practices this. It's to help you feel the lateral brace.
And I also practice techniques like the "double move" and "back leg throwing" lack power. Bracing can be driven from the x-step or using momentum, with the former being more challenging but allowing better footwork. Incorporating momentum into a driven brace is preferable for maintaining swing harmony.
And yep, I know top pros like Paul and Simon emphasize a slow and steady approach but can add speed for more power. The drill you mentioned is a standard sports practice for feeling the lateral brace
Your backswing should reach full extension, at the same time your plant foot comes down.
I have questions about brace *timing*
1) Should the brace be doing its maximum level of work at the very start of the forward swing, or should the maximum feeling of force in the brace leg instead sync up with some later point in the swing?
2) When does it feel like the brace is "finished" powering the throw?
I've been trying (unsuccessfully) for a while to have the brace power me throughout pretty much the full rotation of the throw, and focusing on a smooth acceleration from start of the forward swing until the release point. But this "long brace" has only led to me either feeling trapped behind the brace leg's knee or, when I try to avoid that, planting with my front toes pointing too far forward.
Yesterday, I experimented with something different: trying to get a sudden and violent turn forward immediately out of the peak backswing. It felt like a much more sudden and brief pressure in my front foot. Rather than feeling like I'm using the ground to pull me through the entire throw (the old feeling) it felt like I used the ground to accelerate me from peak backswing up until roughly the power pocket (or a bit before it), after which the rest of the throw's rotation was just an inevitable continuation of momentum. In the old version of my throw, power pocket through to follow-through felt restricted by the fact that my brace leg was still glued to the ground in a closed position, but in this new version I felt safely de-weighted by the time it was time to follow-through. It was a new feeling, but I was able to reach ~360ft on flat ground (which has been my plateau for a long time) despite the fact that I wasn't in great control of my release angles yet with this new throwing sensation. Does it sound like this punchier version of the throw is something I should stick with, or am I on another wrong track?
1) Should the brace be doing its maximum level of work at the very start of the forward swing, or should the maximum feeling of force in the brace leg instead sync up with some later point in the swing?
2) When does it feel like the brace is "finished" powering the throw?
I've been trying (unsuccessfully) for a while to have the brace power me throughout pretty much the full rotation of the throw, and focusing on a smooth acceleration from start of the forward swing until the release point. But this "long brace" has only led to me either feeling trapped behind the brace leg's knee or, when I try to avoid that, planting with my front toes pointing too far forward.
Yesterday, I experimented with something different: trying to get a sudden and violent turn forward immediately out of the peak backswing. It felt like a much more sudden and brief pressure in my front foot. Rather than feeling like I'm using the ground to pull me through the entire throw (the old feeling) it felt like I used the ground to accelerate me from peak backswing up until roughly the power pocket (or a bit before it), after which the rest of the throw's rotation was just an inevitable continuation of momentum. In the old version of my throw, power pocket through to follow-through felt restricted by the fact that my brace leg was still glued to the ground in a closed position, but in this new version I felt safely de-weighted by the time it was time to follow-through. It was a new feeling, but I was able to reach ~360ft on flat ground (which has been my plateau for a long time) despite the fact that I wasn't in great control of my release angles yet with this new throwing sensation. Does it sound like this punchier version of the throw is something I should stick with, or am I on another wrong track?
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
^ Video is best & words are weird and this thread is 200+posts for a reason, so I'm going to respond a little differently than the language you're using there.
Land and resist the earth while compressed like a spring, pushing it away from you. Your plant leg/brace should be responding/reacting to landing on your leg stacked well with momentum like a pitcher. If you're in good posture it will open your front side smooth but powerful like a big strong lever (your leg), and swing your body, arm, and disc through.
I'll leave "violent" to the philosophers and video, but whatever the words, an abrupt shift against the backswing getting pulled taut is the idea. The bolded part maybe sounds on the right track. Perception gets funny as you accelerate. It's a continuous motion. At one moment, you're actually glued to the ground with a ton of peak ground pressure briefly while the plant leg is clearing that front hip to lead the swing, and as the swing comes through it deweights quickly as you rotate into follow through.
Back to the thread topic and "KISS" - you need to move leg to leg in balance. IMHO try not to overfocus on bracing specifically. Many people who do that end up just reaching with the front leg "braking" their momentum rather than landing "stacked" on it, which is really just a continuous process of transmitting forces like walking or running. That also means they're leaving significant power on the table.
Gurthie or Wiggins or whoever's plant leg never stops moving. If it did, they'd be disconnecting it from their bodies and go to the hospital with all the force they're bringing into the plant:
Sometimes you can delay the swing through the upper body just after the plant to ensure you're transmitting ground force to practice the lag in the chain instead of swinging too early/open. Proceed carefully.
Land and resist the earth while compressed like a spring, pushing it away from you. Your plant leg/brace should be responding/reacting to landing on your leg stacked well with momentum like a pitcher. If you're in good posture it will open your front side smooth but powerful like a big strong lever (your leg), and swing your body, arm, and disc through.
I'll leave "violent" to the philosophers and video, but whatever the words, an abrupt shift against the backswing getting pulled taut is the idea. The bolded part maybe sounds on the right track. Perception gets funny as you accelerate. It's a continuous motion. At one moment, you're actually glued to the ground with a ton of peak ground pressure briefly while the plant leg is clearing that front hip to lead the swing, and as the swing comes through it deweights quickly as you rotate into follow through.
Back to the thread topic and "KISS" - you need to move leg to leg in balance. IMHO try not to overfocus on bracing specifically. Many people who do that end up just reaching with the front leg "braking" their momentum rather than landing "stacked" on it, which is really just a continuous process of transmitting forces like walking or running. That also means they're leaving significant power on the table.
Gurthie or Wiggins or whoever's plant leg never stops moving. If it did, they'd be disconnecting it from their bodies and go to the hospital with all the force they're bringing into the plant:
Sometimes you can delay the swing through the upper body just after the plant to ensure you're transmitting ground force to practice the lag in the chain instead of swinging too early/open. Proceed carefully.
Regarding "compressed like a spring", are you referring to the brace leg being like a linear spring, or the body being like a torsional spring, or both?
Regarding "move leg to leg in balance", should I always feel like I'm in control of my body's momentum, or should the final 3 steps feel like my momentum is going forward and I can't stop it (until the brace) and my legs are just keeping me from falling/sitting down to the ground?
As for video being better than words, see link below. In the first video, it feels like my momentum is unimpeded/uncontrolled until the brace, and then my brace leg is relatively rigid (not spring-like... more like a kickstand). In the second-video, my momentum feels much more controlled (perhaps to the point of not even adding much to my shot?) but my brace leg feels much more springy and like I am actually pushing against the ground with my leg. Would love your thoughts on whether or not there's anything from either video that looks to be on the right track as far as this discussion goes.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3891373&postcount=20
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Kind of like a linear spring if you mean this:
Of course through the anatomy of a leg so it doesn't look like that. The abstract leg spring should be relatively tighter than that cute image - quick and powerful, not saggy. Remember that you see the effects of forces after they causes, and there is quite a bit of resisting the ground going on in that springy leg when you land.
Move leg in balance: more or less the same as running or walking. You may need to air on the side of letting your momentum/CoG more forward in order to find the momentum you are trying to master (a lot like a baby stumbling around and catching itself at first).
Videos:
first one looks like your body mass is kind of hanging back too far off the drive rather than getting fully commited forward on top of your plant leg when you land. Much less powerful than fully leading with your mAss into the shift.
Your second one looks like you get a little more "on top" of the leg with compression and leverage. I'm not sure your top line action is helping you. You dramatically restrict the swing space and look very crowded, and your lower body doesn't really move well given that you aren't in a more relaxed posture going into the move. IMHO always easier to start a little looser then worry about tightening up later. Usually tightening up too soon ****s up your chain and makes you compensate, sometimes forever.
You don't ever really get fully pulled taut against the weight shift through your core in your backswing overall.
Empathy & coaching points:
I currently am still working on posture/momentum tricks to commit momentum more forward into the plant, then often frequently have to smooth & tweak stuff out on the rear side to make sure I'm not spoiling the effect moving thru the X. Most players are leaving a lot of shift force, torque from the ground, plant ground reaction force, and/or acceleration from before the drive leg process/X on the table. Airing on the side of getting momentum forward aggressively (to my body's tolerance) has always worked better for me and often seems to help other players break through since most bodies tend to shy away, then you keep working on the balance on the rear side as needed. Make sure you're moving well enough before you add momentum in the first place so you don't get hurt.
RowingBoats
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I was thinking about starting a new thread to discuss this concept, but found this post instead
I have been spending time trying to simplify the swing lately. Smashing the 10 o'clock position is by far the most effective 'swing thought' I have discovered. And I mean SMASHING the 10 o'clock position. I cannot snap my arm to 10 o'clock with power without naturally doing decent mechanics, I literally cannot do it.
I can do all manner of nonsense if I lose this simple goal somehow. I can start spinning out and generating a little bit of power, but the results of this type of swing are horrendous. All kinds of things happen. Wide spray angles, nose up (I suspect because my release point moves past 10 o'clock altering where the 'nose' of the disc is). It's just bad.
Am I wrong to think that this concept should be put far more front and center when teaching the feeling of the swing? I suspect that some people entertain the concept but do not fully explore how literal it really is. The 10 o'clock smash is actually kind of hard to pick out when you observe footage of other people throwing, the transition to the follow-through can be illusorily smooth.
Curious what other people think. Does anyone throw (reasonably) far and NOT viscerally feel this position as the overall goal?
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
I'm with you. I have had a lot of success recovering my best moves using just this thought if I get lost somewhere. It's also hard to "see" on camera sometimes, but it's obvious in your own head.I was thinking about starting a new thread to discuss this concept, but found this post instead
I have been spending time trying to simplify the swing lately. Smashing the 10 o'clock position is by far the most effective 'swing thought' I have discovered. And I mean SMASHING the 10 o'clock position. I cannot snap my arm to 10 o'clock with power without naturally doing decent mechanics, I literally cannot do it.
I can do all manner of nonsense if I lose this simple goal somehow. I can start spinning out and generating a little bit of power, but the results of this type of swing are horrendous. All kinds of things happen. Wide spray angles, nose up (I suspect because my release point moves past 10 o'clock altering where the 'nose' of the disc is). It's just bad.
Am I wrong to think that this concept should be put far more front and center when teaching the feeling of the swing? I suspect that some people entertain the concept but do not fully explore how literal it really is. The 10 o'clock smash is actually kind of hard to pick out when you observe footage of other people throwing, the transition to the follow-through can be illusorily smooth.
Curious what other people think. Does anyone throw (reasonably) far and NOT viscerally feel this position as the overall goal?
If I have one of those days where I just can't find my best stuff, usually a little work on this for a day or two helps whatever I had before come back faster.
It also helped me add a bit more "easy" standstill and X-step distance recently combined with some of SW's coaching points.
ElleEStar pointed out somewhere else a few weeks ago that sometimes full effort shadow swings can help when you're developing distance. I agree with that especially if you connect it to the thought you're describing (for me it's "swing for the fences"). There I'd just caution folks to make sure they're moving well enough before they commit to the full momentum first.
Interested if it generalizes.
RowingBoats
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Yup. This is why I think it might be a slightly overlooked concept. I think it is easy for some people to read "10 o'clock release" and think that is just a bi-product of a rotation oriented swing. Or something. I don't really know what I mean other than the fact that the feeling is extremely pronounced for me when I am swinging well.
It is also a self-healing cornerstone to return to when I have been working on other things and maybe slip up in other areas. It is just the key to so many aspects of things people seem to be trying to control or time in more nebulous ways.
Like always, I cannot be sure if this is actually something that will help newer players, or if it is just a useful wrapper over the top of all of the things I have learned to incorporate in my swing.
I think there is something to it though, because things like the closed shoulder snap drill almost instantly boosted my understanding of what I was trying to do. If I could teach myself how to swing, I would probably almost start there and make sure the concept is actually cemented and known to be far more literal than it might otherwise seem.
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
I really like "self-healing cornerstone." Talking more about simplifying ideas here:
For me personally the 10 o'clock-ish thing at a certain arm slot (low for me) always is super close to what hits my heavy bag the hardest at lowest effort with a hammer or back fist or whatever other thing. I increasingly but that there's some kind of conserved min/max leverage principle across hits and throws for a given person there too. Closer shoulder snap seems like it lives somewhere in that same space.
For me the follow through becomes more like an uppercut in my form because that's kind of just following through after getting the most powerful 10 oclock-ish "hit". My body gets power more easily aligned in that direction in any other athletic move so I'm just rolling with it. Other forms/body types seem to get it at different angles...
Coaching takeaways/for newer players, it seems to vary but I def. agree that it could/should be introduced pretty early on, and might save a lot of frustration in any detail work. I think everyone should give it a stab because it's a big part of what makes that "athletic" move you're after in the end, I think.
Just from observing developing players: some people tend to get the whole swing/slash thru/release point/"contact/hit" thing much faster than others. Some of them seem to get it but leave a lot from their lower body/weight shift on the table (like me), so it started working better for me fairly recently. Some of them seem to get the legs and shift, but their arm is just not playing along or they can't figure out how the core works or whatever. But once you really encode the idea of your version of "swinging for the fences" it gets you more there than not (probably).
For drills, this one move shouldn't be underestimated IMO. It pretty much got it for me and integrated all that detail work, and I keep tweaking things. When shit is falling apart I seem to quickly recover using it. It works great at low speed or "full send"/"home run" shadow swings. Different bodies might wear it differently but it's got the goods. You can improve it over a lifetime:
When I'm throwing my best it "feels" pretty much like that, just the disc is allowed to commit and release. I throw farther more easily and accurately, hurt less, and recover mechanics quicker when they start to stray.
drk_evns
Eagle Member
I often notice a release way to the right of the run up in pros, especially when they're throwing big hyzers. I've wondered if the "10 oclock hit" is just a compensation for this release, and a "12 oclock hit" is just as (if not more) powerful—you just have to compensate for the release to the right with the run up. Thoughts?
RowingBoats
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Do you have a good example of this I can peek at?
For me, I'm not sure how a 12 o'clock hit is even possible, but we might just be using different words.
I do think this whole conversation is in the bright red danger zone for feel vs real discrepancies lol.
drk_evns
Eagle Member
sorry, I don't actually mean 12. I mean somewhere after 10 but probably before 12. I'll look for examples. I see it a lot of the disc coming out right for Paul, but GG is who I think of when I think wide shoulder angle.
RowingBoats
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Np haha always down to learn something new. This is very much a feel/thought thing for me, but im curious to learn what is actually happening too
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Yeah, I think it's worth searching around for the exact release point for maximum force in terms of the "clock" - it seems to relate to the shoulder angle width.
