Drive Leg Mechanics

[Sheep]

Do you have a good example of this I can peek at?
For me, I'm not sure how a 12 o'clock hit is even possible, but we might just be using different words.

I do think this whole conversation is in the bright red danger zone for feel vs real discrepancies lol.

When pro's go full smash, they usually throw the disc late in the swing.

But I don't think its really that they throw "late" per say, its probably still 2200 on the clock, but they have over rotated their chest a bit more driving the force, so while in the foot to chest arc, its out late, but the chest to arm arc, its out on time.

Also, if we look at the feldberg method of throwing, when you throw a sky hyzer, you step inside on your plant allowing the body to open up further.

 

[timothy42b]

Do you have a good example of this I can peek at?
For me, I'm not sure how a 12 o'clock hit is even possible, but we might just be using different words.

I would rather have used degrees of a circle, with 0/360 in the direction of the target. 90 then is same as 3:00, 270 as 9:00. But we're using clocks, okay. And I'm guessing we all agree that 12 oclock is toward the line of the throw, not the pin; so on a hyzer it is right of the pin, on an anny to the left. Obvious maybe, or maybe not.

Long ago when the pull was considered to be a straight line from end of backswing to release, 12:00 was thought to be the hit, and I still see many people aim pre-throw as if that were true.

I think a 12 oclock hit is exactly how the Ultimate low power pass is thrown, and described well by Sarah Hummel, and also a lot of putting strokes. But remember in her thesis the throwing arm never straightens. It never exceeds 90. So the question becomes - what is pointing at 10:00? The upper arm? The straight arm? The straight wrist?

Because I'm not sure even a 10:00 hit is possible, technically. An object moving on an arc has an instaneous direction vector that is tangent to the arc and perpendicular to the radius. When released it will always travel in the 9:00 direction from that point on the arc.

But now we have to know the center of the arc.

 

[Brychanus]

I would rather have used degrees of a circle, with 0/360 in the direction of the target. 90 then is same as 3:00, 270 as 9:00. But we're using clocks, okay. And I'm guessing we all agree that 12 oclock is toward the line of the throw, not the pin; so on a hyzer it is right of the pin, on an anny to the left. Obvious maybe, or maybe not.

Long ago when the pull was considered to be a straight line from end of backswing to release, 12:00 was thought to be the hit, and I still see many people aim pre-throw as if that were true.

I think a 12 oclock hit is exactly how the Ultimate low power pass is thrown, and described well by Sarah Hummel, and also a lot of putting strokes. But remember in her thesis the throwing arm never straightens. It never exceeds 90. So the question becomes - what is pointing at 10:00? The upper arm? The straight arm? The straight wrist?

Because I'm not sure even a 10:00 hit is possible, technically. An object moving on an arc has an instaneous direction vector that is tangent to the arc and perpendicular to the radius. When released it will always travel in the 9:00 direction from that point on the arc.

But now we have to know the center of the arc.

Makes sense. I think many people are just using the 10 oclock-ish (or wherever) idea to describe the apparent position of the hand/disc/arm relative to the plane of the shoulders viewed from above (though not only the shoulders, which further confused some people). So a coaching heuristic like RB's works well insofar as enough else is going well for the player to implement the thought. I agree that the rest remains relevant to be discussed in the mechanics.

 

[timothy42b]

Makes sense. I think many people are just using the 10 oclock-ish (or wherever) idea to describe the apparent position of the hand/disc/arm relative to the plane of the shoulders viewed from above (though not only the shoulders, which further confused some people). So a coaching heuristic like RB's works well insofar as enough else is going well for the player to implement the thought. I agree that the rest remains relevant to be discussed in the mechanics.

Good point. I agree the 10 oclock idea seems to be a mental image that works, whether it is geometrically precise or not.

When we look at pro form images, the upper arm, lower arm, and wrist all appear to be in a straight line at 10:00, and I think we probably have an image of all three elements arriving at that point, like a golf club and left arm ending up pretty straight at impact. But that can't really be true, or the disc would fly towards 2:00. The disc must be gone before 10:00 if that happens. (and those images usually show the disc already in the air)

If the upper arm is pointing at 10 at the hit, and the disc goes straight, then either the elbow or the wrist was not straight yet at the real hit. I'm curious as which it really is. But alas, knowing won't help me throw even a foot farther.

 

[RowingBoats]

I would rather have used degrees of a circle, with 0/360 in the direction of the target. 90 then is same as 3:00, 270 as 9:00. But we're using clocks, okay. And I'm guessing we all agree that 12 oclock is toward the line of the throw, not the pin; so on a hyzer it is right of the pin, on an anny to the left. Obvious maybe, or maybe not.

Long ago when the pull was considered to be a straight line from end of backswing to release, 12:00 was thought to be the hit, and I still see many people aim pre-throw as if that were true.

I think a 12 oclock hit is exactly how the Ultimate low power pass is thrown, and described well by Sarah Hummel, and also a lot of putting strokes. But remember in her thesis the throwing arm never straightens. It never exceeds 90. So the question becomes - what is pointing at 10:00? The upper arm? The straight arm? The straight wrist?

Because I'm not sure even a 10:00 hit is possible, technically. An object moving on an arc has an instaneous direction vector that is tangent to the arc and perpendicular to the radius. When released it will always travel in the 9:00 direction from that point on the arc.

But now we have to know the center of the arc.

Ya I totally understand what you are saying lol, and maybe this explains why this isn't as straight forward as I wish it could be if I could telepathically communicate what I am talking about.

I was going to try to define more clearly what I mean by 10 o'clock but then it became clear this is a complex undertaking and we have to agree on a bunch of things before it actually makes sense.

I suppose the main goal with this concept, to me, would be to truly get people to feel that there even IS a distinct release point that you are channeling all of your momentum and acceleration to crescendo at.

Your post did crack me up though. I ALMOST decided to try to bring up a 9 o'clock release point because I swear something about inching it back slightly in my mental model of the swing makes me smash that hit so hard. But I figured this would be too nebulous of a statement because in the context of the clock I visualize it isn't literally 9 o'clock. But maybe in the context of all of the momentum it is? Not sure

Definitely didn't mean to make this a complex discussion or argument, my overall point is super ridiculously simple.

 

[RowingBoats]

Good point. I agree the 10 oclock idea seems to be a mental image that works, whether it is geometrically precise or not.

When we look at pro form images, the upper arm, lower arm, and wrist all appear to be in a straight line at 10:00, and I think we probably have an image of all three elements arriving at that point, like a golf club and left arm ending up pretty straight at impact. But that can't really be true, or the disc would fly towards 2:00. The disc must be gone before 10:00 if that happens. (and those images usually show the disc already in the air)

If the upper arm is pointing at 10 at the hit, and the disc goes straight, then either the elbow or the wrist was not straight yet at the real hit. I'm curious as which it really is. But alas, knowing won't help me throw even a foot farther.

Haha, what a funny simultaneous post.

 

[Brychanus]

Good point. I agree the 10 oclock idea seems to be a mental image that works, whether it is geometrically precise or not.

When we look at pro form images, the upper arm, lower arm, and wrist all appear to be in a straight line at 10:00, and I think we probably have an image of all three elements arriving at that point, like a golf club and left arm ending up pretty straight at impact. But that can't really be true, or the disc would fly towards 2:00. The disc must be gone before 10:00 if that happens. (and those images usually show the disc already in the air)

If the upper arm is pointing at 10 at the hit, and the disc goes straight, then either the elbow or the wrist was not straight yet at the real hit. I'm curious as which it really is. But alas, knowing won't help me throw even a foot farther.

Yeah, I understand what you mean. From a learning perspective, something that has helped me a lot is fishing around with extreme versions of each of these ideas so I get more feedback when the disc comes out. Some people seem to respond really well to the dingle/arm swing concept and end up in a good spot, however it works. Other people seem to need other concepts.

Certain kinds of athletes really do respond almost right away to what RB is saying and just "get after it" throwing a mile and you can clean up the slop after the fact, but it's still not easy (for me) to predict who that will work for out of the gate...

 

[RowingBoats]

Yeah, I understand what you mean. From a learning perspective, something that has helped me a lot is fishing around with extreme versions of each of these ideas so I get more feedback when the disc comes out. Some people seem to respond really well to the dingle/arm swing concept and end up in a good spot, however it works. Other people seem to need other concepts.

Certain kinds of athletes really do respond almost right away to what RB is saying and just "get after it" throwing a mile and you can clean up the slop after the fact, but it's still not easy (for me) to predict who that will work for out of the gate...

I think the way I talk about it might be weird because I only talk about a stand-still style swing. Maybe the x-step makes this all a bit more natural, but from my perspective it seems like it introduces way more variables.

I do admit that throwing far (ish) from a standstill is a pretty dang fast action so I could see myself emphasizing things others might not.

 

[Waddball]

I ALMOST decided to try to bring up a 9 o'clock release point because I swear something about inching it back slightly in my mental model of the swing makes me smash that hit so hard. But I figured this would be too nebulous of a statement because in the context of the clock I visualize it isn't literally 9 o'clock. But maybe in the context of all of the momentum it is? Not sure

I think this 9 o'clock idea is sort of what Jaani is getting at here:

Not that you want to literally throw for power using the drill he references, but it's helpful in getting the feeling of throwing "out" from the body instead of in-line with the direction of momentum. Which, at least for me, is not an intuitive concept, and is one I have to actively think through when I regress.

 

[RowingBoats]

I think this 9 o'clock idea is sort of what Jaani is getting at here:

Not that you want to literally throw for power using the drill he references, but it's helpful in getting the feeling of throwing "out" from the body instead of in-line with the direction of momentum. Which, at least for me, is not an intuitive concept, and is one I have to actively think through when I regress.

That seems almost exactly like what I am saying.

I think it might in fact be more literal when throwing for power than it seems too. It has been bothering me trying to 'see' this in other people's drives though, because to me it is such an effective swing thought or goal, but looking at other people throw, and even myself, its not as sudden/violent as it feels. If you do it with power you WILL follow through and it looks like something else was done.

I agree that it is not intuitive in some respects, but it is extremely intuitive as an endpoint for the acceleration in my own brain. This whole concept is one of the major things that tied all of the knowledge together for me.

Now that I have heard some thoughts on all of this, I think a better way to describe it is similar to that video. Play around with a specific hit-point, and move it back on the clock while keeping the goal of the disc's trajectory the same and see what happens.

 

[Brychanus]

That seems almost exactly like what I am saying.

I think it might in fact be more literal when throwing for power than it seems too. It has been bothering me trying to 'see' this in other people's drives though, because to me it is such an effective swing thought or goal, but looking at other people throw, and even myself, its not as sudden/violent as it feels. If you do it with power you WILL follow through and it looks like something else was done.

I agree that it is not intuitive in some respects, but it is extremely intuitive as an endpoint for the acceleration in my own brain. This whole concept is one of the major things that tied all of the knowledge together for me.

Now that I have heard some thoughts on all of this, I think a better way to describe it is similar to that video. Play around with a specific hit-point, and move it back on the clock while keeping the goal of the disc's trajectory the same and see what happens.

When my standstill started to pick up what I think you're describing, it definitely had a shocking spike in force/"doing violence" through the hit. I kept having trouble holding onto the disc the more I added whole body momentum to commit the move and my body had to keep adjusting to it. I realized I needed to let that sensation teach my body "backwards from the hit/release." That's the "thing" I use to calibrate/recalibrate now. If it's not there I know I'm not using the good stuff.

X still is harder for me but same effect - I know immediately whether or not I "had it" because it feels completely different.

For me only analogous thing in other sports is still when I would throw a punch or kick and knew I would knock someone down before the move hit them. The practice outside matches would just be working to replicate that over and over and apply it to more and more punches and kicks.

Another learning anecdote: I still rarely am hitting it 100% of drives in a given round. Some rounds it just isn't quite connecting. But when you get it you need to take a moment to celebrate it out loud or in your head and forgive yourself on the bad ones. Matters from a reinforcement perspective.

 

[RowingBoats]

I realized I needed to let that sensation teach my body "backwards from the hit/release." That's the "thing" I use to calibrate/recalibrate now. If it's not there I know I'm not using the good stuff.

Lol, exactly. I suspect this is all kind of what Beto was after, but I think when you encounter that drill/concept with the wrong ideas, you think the 'hit' is the whole movement out of the pocket. Which it can be discussed as such, but, I think an even more literal "work from the hit backwards" is possible. Actually working from the smash-point backwards. You can't actually release a disc without more movement, but there has to be a way to get people to switch from the intuitive rotational mental model, or the straight line mental model, into a SMASH THIS POINT ONLY model.

I know none of these ideas are new lol. I sometimes get the itch to try to describe it because its such a game changing revelation, and its so utterly simple.

 

[ChrisinFL]

This is all pretty new to me. I thought my goal was a pretty straight line throw. That's not right? At 6 months playing, am I not ready for this yet? I have to admit, this thread is messing with my mind a bit!

 

[BruisedOoze]

Good point. I agree the 10 oclock idea seems to be a mental image that works, whether it is geometrically precise or not.

When we look at pro form images, the upper arm, lower arm, and wrist all appear to be in a straight line at 10:00, and I think we probably have an image of all three elements arriving at that point, like a golf club and left arm ending up pretty straight at impact. But that can't really be true, or the disc would fly towards 2:00. The disc must be gone before 10:00 if that happens. (and those images usually show the disc already in the air)

If the upper arm is pointing at 10 at the hit, and the disc goes straight, then either the elbow or the wrist was not straight yet at the real hit. I'm curious as which it really is. But alas, knowing won't help me throw even a foot farther.

I would be cautious. The arm/wrist picture is incomplete. It's the direction the disc center of mass is going at release, and not the hand, which will dictate the tangent. Given that a disc breaks from back to front on a grip generally (the pivot), you have another arc on top of the arc you're considering.

 

[timothy42b]

I would be cautious. The arm/wrist picture is incomplete. It's the direction the disc center of mass is going at release, and not the hand, which will dictate the tangent. Given that a disc breaks from back to front on a grip generally (the pivot), you have another arc on top of the arc you're considering.

Yes, exactly. That's part of what confuses me. We have a multi-jointed lever moving, with joints at shoulder, elbow, wrist, and pivot finger. Where is the center of radius? I dunno. Where is 10:00? Probably where upper arm points for most of our thinking but again I dunno.

I tried thinking 10:00 smash on the course today. Video on one hole showed me coiling on the backswing and throwing from the back leg. Parked that for a makeable birdie putt though, go figure. (short hole)

 

[sidewinder22]

I don't really think about 10 o'clock. I'm trying to extend the lever/arc/radius outward wider away from my center.

Leverage & Centrifugal Force are Sideways

Maximum Leverage and Centrifugal Force occurs approximately 90 degrees from target line with the arm extended wide out over your front foot to the side of the tee like a hockey stick hitting a puck to the goal or arm pulled out taut like ball on string releasing to target, and the rear arm/leg...

www.dgcoursereview.com

 

[Sewer bill]

I have obtained a headache trying to understand what this clock position discussion is actually trying to describe.

Everyone has different flexibility and range of motion and forearm to upper arm length ratios and to say try and hit this position at this clock position is assuming way too much.

Just a 1" increase in forearm length changes the leverage significantly from person to person at a fixed clock position goal and could benefit one person and dampen another.

There can't be a generic number on a clock that everyone should strive for because we aren't all shaped the same and the follow through should dictate the swing geometry otherwise someone could be training to hyper extend something.

 

[RowingBoats]

Yes, exactly. That's part of what confuses me. We have a multi-jointed lever moving, with joints at shoulder, elbow, wrist, and pivot finger. Where is the center of radius? I dunno. Where is 10:00? Probably where upper arm points for most of our thinking but again I dunno.

I tried thinking 10:00 smash on the course today. Video on one hole showed me coiling on the backswing and throwing from the back leg. Parked that for a makeable birdie putt though, go figure. (short hole)

I think my post is maybe taking on a life of too much literalism.

Mostly all that I mean, is that there is a point OUT from the body that you want to actually smash the hit at. Not pulling through to the front in a straight line. I do not know what 'time' this is, or what degree of angle, and I don't want people to get too caught up in that if I misworded something.

 

[RowingBoats]

I have obtained a headache trying to understand what this clock position discussion is actually trying to describe.

Everyone has different flexibility and range of motion and forearm to upper arm length ratios and to say try and hit this position at this clock position is assuming way too much.

Just a 1" increase in forearm length changes the leverage significantly from person to person at a fixed clock position goal and could benefit one person and dampen another.

There can't be a generic number on a clock that everyone should strive for because we aren't all shaped the same and the follow through should dictate the swing geometry otherwise someone could be training to hyper extend something.

I'm with ya, I shouldn't have used a 10 o'clock description. It doesn't even make sense to myself if I REALLY try to define the statement.

There is an emphasis that I am trying to describe, and if I could do it perfectly I would lol.

 

[RowingBoats]

I don't really think about 10 o'clock. I'm trying to extend the lever/arc/radius outward wider away from my center.

Leverage & Centrifugal Force are Sideways

Maximum Leverage and Centrifugal Force occurs approximately 90 degrees from target line with the arm extended wide out over your front foot to the side of the tee like a hockey stick hitting a puck to the goal or arm pulled out taut like ball on string releasing to target, and the rear arm/leg...

www.dgcoursereview.com

Damn it lol, this is definitely the post I should have tried replying to, sorry all.

I did a few searches and the original post I quoted here was what I found, this thread is much better.