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Drive Leg Mechanics
- Thread starter sidewinder22
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Brychanus
* Ace Member *
I think fads come and go, and there is always a culture of finding the "one quick fix" for problems. But this spin shift and squash the bug thing comes up with alarming frequency, is particularly stubborn, and I think it will get worse before it gets better now that you have factions hyping it (SS trainees) and now pros (Uli) talking publicly about and teaching it.
One hypothesis is that it's the correct or preferred action, and content frequently shared around DGCR wrong. I think that hypothesis is false due to plenty of video evidence, science and debates from other sports, and trying to do both myself. I always advise to be your own skeptic - try it (carefully), and compare your movement meticulously to any top pro.
The last time I asked a similar question, Sidewinder mentioned that this spin shift is a pretty fast way to shift your weight from rear leg to front leg. The main problem with that is it tends to open up the front side early and inconsistently, and if you actually do it when you throw it puts strain on body parts (legs/knee/back/elbow/shoulder) that can catch up with you.
I think it's also hard to demonstrate the preferred shift slowly unless you've isolated it and mastered it at low speed. But I'm not sure everyone learns it that way, so when people slow down to try and teach it they default to the fast & powerful feeling spin-shift/squish the bug. What they often miss is the consequence of literally doing that on the rest of the form & throw. I'd also say that if you're not paying attention parts of the moves do feel similar at first.
"Squash the bug" is also incorrectly taught in baseball. Several of the arguments I've had with people adamant that "squash the bug" is correct were former baseball players who were taught that. If you look at some of the positive comments on SSDG's youtube page you will see several "as a former baseball player ..."
Hampejo
Par Member
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https://www.instagram.com/reel/CpMKPCTJtkk/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
He seems to know what he is talking about.
He seems to know what he is talking about.
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Rear side action there into backswing and swing looks pretty good I think.
Agree w/ Jaani about plant knee snap or hyperextension. There it looks a bit like Tiger before he got hurt or Gibson sometimes (don't think Gibson got hurt yet but I worried about it on his behalf). I saw SW point out elsewhere that Barela also picked up a knee snap.
The leg and knee can take a lot of force but I think you want to avoid the hyperextension in favor of smoother motion. People have also speculated that this may also lead to some drive inconsistency because you've got a sudden "jerk" force in the chain.
Examples are helpful.
Drew with more knee snap on a mash:
Drew with less of a mash but still some knee snap:
Barela w/ plant knee snap:
In contrast, note how these two put a lot of force on the front leg but don't hyperextend the knee:
Simon w/out plant knee snap:
Eagle w/out plant knee snap:
I usually like to avoid talking or thinking about "twisting" the hips.
Hampejo
Par Member
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I totally agree but the principles he stated are still valid.
And for the twisting bit, it got my attention too. I even commented on the reel on that particular subject.
I have not yet read through all of this thread so I am sorry if this question has been asked before.
I have trouble understanding the relationship between pushing myself forward and dropping into the plant/squat. In post #1 of this thread there is this gif with Paige Pierce: https://media.giphy.com/media/iIeo5ECr9Tw5J6tK15/giphy.gif. This looks to me like a strong push. However mostly it is recommended to sit or squat into the plant. Do these things coexist? Can anybody help me understand the relationship between those 2 moves?
I have trouble understanding the relationship between pushing myself forward and dropping into the plant/squat. In post #1 of this thread there is this gif with Paige Pierce: https://media.giphy.com/media/iIeo5ECr9Tw5J6tK15/giphy.gif. This looks to me like a strong push. However mostly it is recommended to sit or squat into the plant. Do these things coexist? Can anybody help me understand the relationship between those 2 moves?
Hey man, good question. I'd say that Paige GIF is more like an exercise that exaggerates the lateral shift component of the swing, with the main instructional point being that you shouldn't try to twist in transition from the back leg to the front leg. You're right that, in the GIF, she seems to push off with both legs to send herself back and forth. Check out this Paige GIF for comparison:
See the difference in the back leg in the actual throw? You can see her load/sit into the ground with that little counterclockwise rotation of her back foot/knee/butt/hip, and then - boom! - get off that leg. The back leg needs to "push" to bear your weight and/or load ground power, but it needs to drop/relax to transition that power into your plant leg. Pushing expends energy, and we want the back leg to load/transition energy that can be expended by the front leg. More horizontal and/or slower walk up throwers (e.g. Kristian Kuoksa, Paul Oman) will get more load/sit before dropping off the leg to transition. More vertical throwers (e.g. Garrett Gurthie, Ken Jarvis, Steve Brinster) will transition quicker.
The disc golf swing is essentially an explosive directional change, from toward the target to away from the target. Here's a couple more sports GIFs. Stefon Diggs is a nasty route runner and a nightmare assignment 1-on-1 outside in the redzone:
In the final directional change back toward the pylon when he beats the cornerback, how does Diggs' left leg ("drive leg" in this example) accelerate him into the right leg plant/ directional change? Does it look like a push or a drop?
Finally, it seems counterintuitive, but the more you push with the back leg in your swing, the less you can push with the front plant leg. And you want push on the front leg. A number of studies have found that one-legged jumps/explosive movements produce greater ground reaction force/muscle contraction than two-legged moves. Why? I'd wager it has to do with bi-pedalism and how our legs work in transition from role to role when we walk or run.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6231348/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11173667/
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
SW focusing me on this video of Paige has been very helpful for me recently (also the source of that gif in SocraDeez post:
That one in particular helped me to better understand what it means to stay "inside" your posture while working on the move off the rear leg.
A lot of it has to do with your posture & the goal of the move. If you take the lateral move Paige is doing in the gif you (Diskimees) linked, but adjust the dynamic posture more like a DG swing such as in some of SW's Turbo Encabulator moves it can help:
I learned a lot playing with the windmill move for x-step. Fair warning: like all moves it seems to go better or worse for people depending on their stage of form development. Currently it's helping me find the flow off the rear leg without forcing it so much.
*edit: consistent w/ the links SocraDeez shared I also wanted to mention that I started working on one-legged jumps in my gym routine. It helps.
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You can also see the torque she has in her rear leg doing the "move" as the rear foot moves backward toward the bush. I would think that she has de-weighted the rear side some by then or else her foot wouldn't slip that way.
...See the difference in the back leg in the actual throw? You can see her load/sit into the ground with that little counterclockwise rotation of her back foot/knee/butt/hip, and then - boom! - get off that leg. The back leg needs to "push" to bear your weight and/or load ground power, but it needs to drop/relax to transition that power into your plant leg...
Sheep
Sir, This is a Wendy's
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Hey man, good question. I'd say that Paige GIF is more like an exercise that exaggerates the lateral shift component of the swing, with the main instructional point being that you shouldn't try to twist in transition from the back leg to the front leg. You're right that, in the GIF, she seems to push off with both legs to send herself back and forth. Check out this Paige GIF for comparison:
This is actually an excellent drill to get people to "feel the brace" and feel the "weight shift" very aggressively.
I've been trying to brace harder myself as I generally don't brace hard with my bad knee's. Bit skerd.
Anyways. Doing dumb stuff like this helps.
Jumping around. jumping into a brace, the hop into the brace.
And it got me to thinking, the brinkster hop isnt' really a bad thing. I've never coached and told people not to, but now I want to coach and tell people to use it to feel the brace. More oakley style though. He doesn't actually x-step but he generates a massive brace with his hop and weight shift. Because the hop is helping you drive into the ground vs drive laterally. Like free energy forcing the harder brace, vs you trying to stomp out the brace if that makes any sense?
So I've found playing around a bit like this before a round, hopping into some practice swings with no disc flight, but just really forcing a hard brace, even if I go back to my more traditional swing I start bracing more aggressively without trying. And I'm really liking those results.
Remember, some drills are to over exaggerate to get the feeling, not to drive the actual motion. This also helps warm up the body to the motions as well.
But generally any correction needs an over correction at first to draw down, cause our bodies are ... well not "that" self aware sometimes.
Really appreciate all the responses.
The Diggs gif resonates with me, in that example I can understand the logic behind the drop better. But to further understand: I expect the disc golf move needs more weight shift compared to the last step moving into the directional change in the Diggs move? Meaning the disc golf drive leg move must still shift the weight further towards the plant compared to Diggs?
The Diggs gif resonates with me, in that example I can understand the logic behind the drop better. But to further understand: I expect the disc golf move needs more weight shift compared to the last step moving into the directional change in the Diggs move? Meaning the disc golf drive leg move must still shift the weight further towards the plant compared to Diggs?
Jaani
Bogey Member
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The so called drive leg solely for balance. There is no push, no twist, no nothing.
Golf is way ahead of us in this. By using the force plates they can see how in the backswing the force does go onto the back leg, but even before the backswing is done, the pressure shifts to the front. This is coiling. And that pressure shift is crucial to make the hips rotate fast.
The backleg has NOTHING to do with the front leg adding pressure. You do it with the front leg, and only make the back leg lighter by adding pressure to the front. It is quite the same as just jumping sideways, like Paige shows in the first GIF.
As you can't do straddles sidehops with two legs going opposite directions at the same time, you can't add pressure to the front by adding pressure to the back. Makes sense?
Golf is way ahead of us in this. By using the force plates they can see how in the backswing the force does go onto the back leg, but even before the backswing is done, the pressure shifts to the front. This is coiling. And that pressure shift is crucial to make the hips rotate fast.
The backleg has NOTHING to do with the front leg adding pressure. You do it with the front leg, and only make the back leg lighter by adding pressure to the front. It is quite the same as just jumping sideways, like Paige shows in the first GIF.
As you can't do straddles sidehops with two legs going opposite directions at the same time, you can't add pressure to the front by adding pressure to the back. Makes sense?
timothy42b
Eagle Member
I found this (kind of long) TreadAthletics video called Back Leg Tension interesting.
I'm curious how much this applies to an X-step where you already have momentum. But baseball and ball golf are standstills or one steps.
I'm curious how much this applies to an X-step where you already have momentum. But baseball and ball golf are standstills or one steps.
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
I was messing around with various windmills.
It might just be me or an "it depends" issue, but looping overhead in the direction depicted in the loopghost windmill drill seems to make it harder to stay in posture, brace the backswing against the rear leg, drop as quickly into the plant, and get to inside posture leverage with the off arm. I think it tended to make everything drive open early off the rear leg and I had to kind of force my body to compensate. I even tested it in the pool today and found the same.
If instead you take the big looping motion but do it in the forward direction, it functions more like an exaggerated windmill pump. E.g., like an exaggerated version of the one in SW's standstill backhand video.
From there, you can shrink the action down without a full pendulum (e.g., just an elbow pump). FWIW it seemed to help my posture and leg action. Not sure if it generalizes at the moment.
It might just be me or an "it depends" issue, but looping overhead in the direction depicted in the loopghost windmill drill seems to make it harder to stay in posture, brace the backswing against the rear leg, drop as quickly into the plant, and get to inside posture leverage with the off arm. I think it tended to make everything drive open early off the rear leg and I had to kind of force my body to compensate. I even tested it in the pool today and found the same.
If instead you take the big looping motion but do it in the forward direction, it functions more like an exaggerated windmill pump. E.g., like an exaggerated version of the one in SW's standstill backhand video.
From there, you can shrink the action down without a full pendulum (e.g., just an elbow pump). FWIW it seemed to help my posture and leg action. Not sure if it generalizes at the moment.
Thanks for the reply. It does make sense and also creates new questions.
Paige's drill becomes more confusing: is it about learning the brace then? Because she forcefully pushes her weight to the plant leg, but I should not do it forcefully even before the actual swing happens?
Paige's drill becomes more confusing: is it about learning the brace then? Because she forcefully pushes her weight to the plant leg, but I should not do it forcefully even before the actual swing happens?
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Brace & resisting in tilted axis.
In a standstill or x-step the rear leg should still be applying good leverage against the ground.
The knee action and drop part off the rear leg is a consequence of your sequence and posture moving through the x-step.
I currently find that mine turns into a "push" if I have a bad posture or sequence. It is more of a "drop" if I'm in better posture or sequence. But the rear leg is definitely still resisting and providing leverage for the backswing or I'd just fall down.
In a standstill or x-step the rear leg should still be applying good leverage against the ground.
The knee action and drop part off the rear leg is a consequence of your sequence and posture moving through the x-step.
I currently find that mine turns into a "push" if I have a bad posture or sequence. It is more of a "drop" if I'm in better posture or sequence. But the rear leg is definitely still resisting and providing leverage for the backswing or I'd just fall down.
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