Paige Pierce #29190

[DanJon]

The fact still remains that so many of her complaints pointed towards the PDGA, should have been taken up with the local organizers.

Of course, that wouldn't have been received as well, because then she would be criticizing the efforts of hard working locals.

It's much easier to attack the faceless bogeyman that is the PDGA when stuff like this arises.

The PDGA of course has issues like any other non-profit organization (I can personally attest to that), but Paige's comments come across as clueless to the amount of effort that has gone into growing the women's side of the sport, outside of the realm of the FPO players.

Sure, the pro side definitely hooks the new players, but I'm not sure how much of an affect is has on actually bringing in first time players.

I would say that the efforts of local organizers and clubs working with and building relationships with local municipalities has had much more to do with the growth of the sport.

Those same relationships are probably why you saw three courses for this tournament.

Imagine working with a local city, that invested in a disc golf course based on your relationships, then you tell them a major is coming to town but you're not going to use their course.

This sport is built on the backs of local groups and volunteers, so stop acting like it's a top down model.

Never has been, never will be.

 

[sidewinder22]

Private courses are the future of the pro tour.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Private courses are the future of the pro tour.

The future is contingent on what clubs or TDs are willing to provide the purses, staffing and volunteers to be included in the DGPT. Whether their course(s) are public or private won't matter as long as they are perceived as tour worthy.

 

[txmxer]

Agree with Danjon. New players such as myself are introduced to DG by friends or some other local connection. Then they get hooked on watching pros.

Had I stumbled on DG coverage prior to playing I probably wouldn't have a second thought. I'm sure I would not have. I used to bike past the course I played tonight. I had seen a few folks throwing discs out there and thought nothing of it.

But once you throw a few times you get hooked and you want to learn and get better.

I'm about half way through the ultiworld video. Although the criticism in response to PP methods may be valid, I think you have to consider her perspective. I don't know her experiences, but I believe she feels it's been 10 years of no respect for the FPO. Time to make some noise and shake things up.

 

[dehaas]

The future is contingent on what clubs or TDs are willing to provide the purses, staffing and volunteers to be included in the DGPT. Whether their course(s) are public or private won't matter as long as they are perceived as tour worthy.

100% do not agree.

Private course owner will pony up some cash to payout with the intent that they'll make it back by hosting the event. It's in their own interest to build it up and make it as gigantic as possible. Somebody with the ability to own a private course will more than likely have connections to people willing to donate to the cause.

Definitely not taking a dump on decades worth of volunteer effort, I've single handedly ran a fundraiser event 9 years. There's simply a limit to what you can attain with volunteer effort. Profit is a different motivator, for better or worse is another debate but that's the trajectory things are now on.

Future is private courses with entry fees and amenities on site that will generate more revenue. Local private owner will have enough pull on the local level to dangle the carrot to the old school cheapo's and n00bs of hey come volunteer otherwise you gotta pay me cash moneys to get in.

That model will work, because there is no precedent. Some money is better than none right?

 

[Cgkdisc]

100% do not agree.

Private course owner will pony up some cash to payout with the intent that they'll make it back by hosting the event. It's in their own interest to build it up and make it as gigantic as possible. Somebody with the ability to own a private course will more than likely have connections to people willing to donate to the cause.

Definitely not taking a dump on decades worth of volunteer effort, I've single handedly ran a fundraiser event 9 years. There's simply a limit to what you can attain with volunteer effort. Profit is a different motivator, for better or worse is another debate but that's the trajectory things are now on.

Future is private courses with entry fees and amenities on site that will generate more revenue. Local private owner will have enough pull on the local level to dangle the carrot to the old school cheapo's and n00bs of hey come volunteer otherwise you gotta pay me cash moneys to get in.

That model will work, because there is no precedent. Some money is better than none right?

You think the future will primarily be private courses. I'm saying what matters is whether promoters in the area can summon the resources to be selected to host an event. I'm including your private course owners under that umbrella. Cale's Preserve is a good example for the moment. However, if hosting a DGPT event doesn't generate sufficient financial benefit for the hosts and/or community, the number of hosts will dry up. Following the money over time will matter like any other venture.

 

[ru4por]

100% do not agree.

Private course owner will pony up some cash to payout with the intent that they'll make it back by hosting the event. It's in their own interest to build it up and make it as gigantic as possible. Somebody with the ability to own a private course will more than likely have connections to people willing to donate to the cause.

Definitely not taking a dump on decades worth of volunteer effort, I've single handedly ran a fundraiser event 9 years. There's simply a limit to what you can attain with volunteer effort. Profit is a different motivator, for better or worse is another debate but that's the trajectory things are now on.

Future is private courses with entry fees and amenities on site that will generate more revenue. Local private owner will have enough pull on the local level to dangle the carrot to the old school cheapo's and n00bs of hey come volunteer otherwise you gotta pay me cash moneys to get in.

That model will work, because there is no precedent. Some money is better than none right?

I simply don't see any money trail here. YouTube money? DGN money? Jomez money? Need to have private land close enough to house a few hundred folks. Have to have restaurants enough for a few hundred folks. I don't see how this is pulled off without an army of volunteers.

 

[dehaas]

You think the future will primarily be private courses. I'm saying what matters is whether promoters in the area can summon the resources to be selected to host an event. I'm including your private course owners under that umbrella. Cale's Preserve is a good example for the moment. However, if hosting a DGPT event doesn't generate sufficient financial benefit for the hosts and/or community, the number of hosts will dry up. Following the money over time will matter like any other venture.

I guess that's what I don't understand. I know bids are submitted in advance, and it's tough to predict what's needed 2-3 years out, but if somebody doesn't have a grasp on what they need financially in order to make an event work they probably don't have any business bidding in the first place?

I'm not saying it'll be all private courses next year, in reality probably 5-10 years before enough "ideal" venues exist to fill out the entire tour schedule, which just means we're going to have a couple more years of top pro gripes.

 

[dehaas]

I simply don't see any money trail here. YouTube money? DGN money? Jomez money? Need to have private land close enough to house a few hundred folks. Have to have restaurants enough for a few hundred folks. I don't see how this is pulled off without an army of volunteers.

I can't speak for larger events, but I've pulled off one of the smoothest running tournaments in the STL area for a while, with an average draw of 150-170 players. 18 hole course with temp holes added based on entry field, largest point was a completely separate 18 hole temp course on site. Lunch provided on site…included in entry along with a custom stamped disc for $25. 6 of us made it happen that year.

If I can turn a profit on that and donate to charity somebody with actual money motivations can make it happen. Just goes back to you can only crack the whip so hard on volunteers.

 

[Nick Pacific]

I simply don't see any money trail here. YouTube money? DGN money? Jomez money? Need to have private land close enough to house a few hundred folks. Have to have restaurants enough for a few hundred folks. I don't see how this is pulled off without an army of volunteers.

A few hundred folks? I think we will be in a very short time period in a place where worlds will have galleries of thousands of people.

The money is going to come from the same place it comes in baseball/basketball/etc., and that is spectator tickets. The only way to get that is to have a property that can accommodate galleries of thousands of people. This will mean you'll need infrastructure, such as parking, lodging, food, and all sorts of the benefits of being in close proximity to a major city can bring.

I see ball golf courses in our future, at least in terms of worlds and major events. The infrastructure is already there and built. It's going to be WAY easier to just rent time at a country club, near a city, that already has the existing infrastructure already built, than it will be to build it from scratch.

Even places like Cales and Paul's private courses don't have the infrastructure needed to accommodate 5000 fans the same way that a country club in the city can. The DGPT will eventually come to the conclusion that it's easier to just rent the space for the weekend than it is to build and own it.

 

[biscoe]

You think the future will primarily be private courses. I'm saying what matters is whether promoters in the area can summon the resources to be selected to host an event. I'm including your private course owners under that umbrella. Cale's Preserve is a good example for the moment. However, if hosting a DGPT event doesn't generate sufficient financial benefit for the hosts and/or community, the number of hosts will dry up. Following the money over time will matter like any other venture.

Without knowing the ins and outs of DGPT's finances it is hard to say where the future will take them. At some point there is the possibility that local fundraising will no longer be the foundation on which things are built. That was one of Dodge's goals to begin with (not to say that those are the goals of DGPT at this point)- to be able to pay the courses rather than vice versa.

Private courses will be the future of the tour because of the increased level of control of all aspects of events on them, not simply that the private courses are better (which in general they are).

 

[biscoe]

I simply don't see any money trail here. YouTube money? DGN money? Jomez money? Need to have private land close enough to house a few hundred folks. Have to have restaurants enough for a few hundred folks. I don't see how this is pulled off without an army of volunteers.

The need for volunteers will never go away- pretty sure that exists on the PGA Tour as well. The potential for multiple revenue streams to add up to something significant is definitely there however.

 

[Nick Pacific]

Private courses will be the future of the tour because of the increased level of control of all aspects of events on them, not simply that the private courses are better (which in general they are).

I think we'll eventually even outgrow these private courses in very short time, at least in terms for major championships. We're going to be on ESPN. We're going to have thousands of fans showing up to events. We're going to need to be near cities, and be able to sell tickets to thousands of fans. I just don't see some private course out in the middle of BFE being able to accommodate all of that. At some point we'll have to pull the plug and piggyback on the infrastructure that ball golf has already built for us. I think it's inevitable.

 

[biscoe]

I think we'll eventually even outgrow these private courses in very short time, at least in terms for major championships. We're going to be on ESPN. We're going to have thousands of fans showing up to events. We're going to need to be near cities, and be able to sell tickets to thousands of fans. I just don't see some private course out in the middle of BFE being able to accommodate all of that. At some point we'll have to pull the plug and piggyback on the infrastructure that ball golf has already built for us. I think it's inevitable.

I sincerely hope you are wrong but there is definitely the possibility you are not. I think you over-rate the importance of ticket revenue a bit- for the NBA for example it makes up 19% of their money. Media revenue whether it be from the media companies themselves or from advertising will eventually be significant should things go according to plan imo. There aren't a ton of golf courses equipped for handling thousands of fans either and the ones which are will have a high price tag attached to their use as well as restrictions on what can be done on them. Either way we are still some period of time from that point and it is an interesting time to be involved.

 

[Nick Pacific]

I think you over-rate the importance of ticket revenue a bit- for the NBA for example it makes up 19% of their money.

That number is skewed because basketball is a global sport and the billions of people in China, India, Africa and around the world that follow it can only purchase a jersey and cannot purchase a ticket to a game. If you adjusted for US revenue vs. ticket sales you'd find that a significant portion of revenue comes from ticket sales and the ancillary benefits of being on site, such as vendor, food, drink purchases at games.

 

[ru4por]

A few hundred folks? I think we will be in a very short time period in a place where worlds will have galleries of thousands of people.

The money is going to come from the same place it comes in baseball/basketball/etc., and that is spectator tickets. The only way to get that is to have a property that can accommodate galleries of thousands of people. This will mean you'll need infrastructure, such as parking, lodging, food, and all sorts of the benefits of being in close proximity to a major city can bring.

I see ball golf courses in our future, at least in terms of worlds and major events. The infrastructure is already there and built. It's going to be WAY easier to just rent time at a country club, near a city, that already has the existing infrastructure already built, than it will be to build it from scratch.

Even places like Cales and Paul's private courses don't have the infrastructure needed to accommodate 5000 fans the same way that a country club in the city can. The DGPT will eventually come to the conclusion that it's easier to just rent the space for the weekend than it is to build and own it.

We're going to disagree, Nick. I don't think the sport will ever realize this kind of popularity. I mean, if you are saying there could be events in the future with 1200 spectators throughout the day, maybe....someday. If you are saying Worlds with 24,000 fans packing ball golf fairways, I just don't see the interest.

 

[Nick Pacific]

We're going to disagree, Nick. I don't think the sport will ever realize this kind of popularity. I mean, if you are saying there could be events in the future with 1200 spectators throughout the day, maybe....someday. If you are saying Worlds with 24,000 fans packing ball golf fairways, I just don't see the interest.

There were more than 1000 spectators at Worlds back in 2014 in Portland. The only reason there aren't more is because the events hosting worlds can't accommodate the parking and gallery space to hold them. Jumping from 5000 to 24000 is a bit of a stretch. I said 5000 spectators, and I think we could already start to reach those numbers right now if we had the space.

I think of even our home Championship course at the Toboggan and all I see are just shortcomings and unsustainablity for a large event where I see things going. Parking!!!! What a disaster parking is. That park cannot accommodate the parking, nonetheless all of the infrastructure needed for a future big event.

Imagine if this event was held somewhere that could accommodate thousands of fans. They would show! You know it as well as I do. I personally know people who don't go out there for the DGPT because of the parking situation. And the lack of food, drinks, seating and whatnot on site, and in terms of lack of gallery space. Just lack of space in general. We're crammed in there like sardines, parking miles away and having to carpool over. It's a great place, don't get me wrong, especially for AM Nats. But to hold a DGPT event? Maybe now, sure.. But it's not scalable, not for where I see the tour going.

 

[biscoe]

That number is skewed because basketball is a global sport and the billions of people in China, India, Africa and around the world that follow it can only purchase a jersey and cannot purchase a ticket to a game. If you adjusted for US revenue vs. ticket sales you'd find that a significant portion of revenue comes from ticket sales and the ancillary benefits of being on site, such as vendor, food, drink purchases at games.

DGPT isn't viewed by people around the world? Those people don't buy stuff? Obviously there is a difference in scale but I watched a few minutes of Finnish dg just the other day.

 

[ChrisWoj]

I think of even our home Championship course at the Toboggan and all I see are just shortcomings and unsustainablity for a large event where I see things going. Parking!!!! What a disaster parking is. That park cannot accommodate the parking, nonetheless all of the infrastructure needed for a future big event.

This is not a problem unique to disc golf venues. Golf venues struggle with similar problems. Here in Toledo we are hosting the Solheim Cup in Sept at Inverness Club which since 1984 has hosted the LPGA's Marathon Classic (formerly the Jamie Farr [sponsor name] Classic). The venue has also hosted four US Opens (most recently in the 70s) and two PGA Championships (most recently in the 90s).

The anticipated parking near the venue is insufficient for the Solheim Cup, and the city has spent millions installing 1.6 miles of sidewalks on both sides of the busy road between the University of Toledo and the Club in order to use a large UToledo parking lot as overflow parking for spectators.

Disc Golf Tour events should not be expected to move off of prime course properties just because parking next to the venue is insufficient for spectators.

 

[Hampstead]

5000 people on a golf course watching a DG major is a future I'm just not interested in.