Cory Ellis 1:12 seconds clock

[ballgolfconvert]

I think in general people CARE based on frequency and context...the rule itself does not.

I disagree that calling 30 seconds on someone who is dealing with a tough situation is unsportsmanlike. It is the rule. It probably SEEMS unsportsmanlike right now because nobody ever enforces it...and as such people feel like a-holes if they do it. That's the problem...people FEEL "unsportsmanlike" enforcing basic rules...because the attitude to this point has been "it's no big deal if I let people break some of the rules".

Until the times of all players are taken on every throw, it will be enforced extremely unevenly and arbitrarily. There simply is no debate on this. if you want even enforcement limit it to players being out of position on the course, and then officials should be able to handle it in an even and arbitrary manner. Keeping it open ended for the entire round is where all the issues come into play.

 

[Meillo]

This is one of the more annoying discussions here. In the Nikko thread a good part of it (besides the trolling, of course) was still constructive, but here it just feels annoying and pointless.

Is there any sport where rule violation calls are objectively clear? Fouls will always be a partly subjective decision. The difference is only who calls them and how that person is treated. This can be solved in different directions. In soccer a neutral referee calls them and is treated very badly by everyone. In snooker players will often call faults themselves and everyone is treated very kindly. The problem is not the rules, but the (different opinions on the) question what kind of sport we want to have.

 

[art_vandelay]

Ya, this thread only exists because of the Nikko thread so it's classic trolling. It was meant to be annoying (people are annoyed all around the world so well done) and pointless but it does suggest rightly that the rules are selectively enforced.

 

[seedlings]

Ya, this thread only exists because of the Nikko thread so it's classic trolling. It was meant to be annoying (people are annoyed all around the world so well done) and pointless but it does suggest rightly that the rules are selectively enforced.

Had Philo said nothing about how much time Corey was taking during coverage, I wouldn't have noticed at all.

 

[Jolt]

Maybe should be its own tread but i do think Brodie said alot of good things about time in discgolf in Foundations latest video. . .that the live rounds takes to much time and we should find ways to speed things up.
And i agree, a full round of DGN takes a LONG time and lots of the things he said makes sense.

He gave one example, GG was WAY in the woods trying to find a way to throw,,....the rest of the card stood in the fairway waiting and over 300ft from their lie. . .Brodie just started to walk up to his lie so he was at his disc ready to throw after GG had thrown. . .but the rest of the card was 300ft away when GG threw. . so a few minutes past as they walked up to thir discs.


I wonder how much faster a round would go if we had just 1min to throw after the person before you had thrown their disc? . .When player A throws player B has 1min to walk up to his disc, and throw. ...and say you could ask for "time" a few times per round if you need extra time for a difficult lie.
Sure it would be hard if player A hits the first tree and player B throws 500ft in to the woods. . .but is it a rule that player B has to stand behind player A and wait for him to throw or CAN player B start to walk up to their discs before player A throws?

 

[mojorooks]

I have no argument besides PDGA make rules that are enforced, or don't make them.

I know a course where there is a rule of 'no alcohol'. Nobody really seems to care about the alcohol itself, but its something people can get out of control with it. At those times, it would be nice to fall back on the rule.

My pond association has a catch and release policy. I don't care about if people keep them, but people can take things too far. At that point they can be made aware of the policy.

The timing rule is no different. Some rules need to be there for the exception not the rule. I agree with the timing rule AND the way its enforced. IMO the Nikko situation was handled quite well. In that context, the Cory Ellis situation rightfully doesn't exist.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

I know a course where there is a rule of 'no alcohol'. Nobody really seems to care about the alcohol itself, but its something people can get out of control with it. At those times, it would be nice to fall back on the rule.

My pond association has a catch and release policy. I don't care about if people keep them, but people can take things too far. At that point they can be made aware of the policy.

The timing rule is no different. Some rules need to be there for the exception not the rule. I agree with the timing rule AND the way its enforced. IMO the Nikko situation was handled quite well. In that context, the Cory Ellis situation rightfully doesn't exist.

I'm in complete agreement with the above.

The problems become:
1) wording
2) interpretation
3) frequency/consistency of enforcement

 

[biscoe]

IMO the time violation in disc golf is a lot like speeding on the road. Both are illegal but the more you do it and the more extremely you do it the more likely you are to face repercussions from it.

 

[txmxer]

IMO the time violation in disc golf is a lot like speeding on the road. Both are illegal but the more you do it and the more extremely you do it the more likely you are to face repercussions from it.

I had a thought about this.

I wonder how many people get pulled over for speeding, get a warning then tell the officer that to issue them a ticket because a rule is a rule.

 

[Rastnav]

This is similar to what I've said in other threads, but probably worth saying again:

The PDGA rule book is written with the primary focus that it be useful in application by the card, and only the card, while playing sanctioned events. It, like anything else, is not perfect. However, when evaluating any of the specific rules, it is important to keep in mind that the primary enforcement will be by 3 or 4 people, each of who is primarily focused on their own game. There is no referee watching every movement, there are no clock operators, there is no announcer, there is no centralized video review control center.

In point of fact, 99+% of rule enforcement is done by the player themselves. We, as individuals, make sure we take a legal stance, take legal putts, mark our lies properly, report our scores properly, etc. Otherwise, this game doesn't work.

The way the time rule is written is not designed for us to precisely police ourselves, and this seems to me to be by intention. This isn't a game of shot clocks. It seems to me to be a reminder that we need to move the game along, be courteous to the other players and that you don't have the right to play a shot without a headwind. Otherwise, the other people on the card get to call you on taking an unreasonable amount of time. That 30 seconds isn't there for the guy stuck deep in the rough, it's to prevent someone from, say, waiting for the wind to drop on every … single … putt. It's because there are people who will attempt to abuse these kinds of things (one way or the other).

 

[glassila]

I had a thought about this.

I wonder how many people get pulled over for speeding, get a warning then tell the officer that to issue them a ticket because a rule is a rule.

...final answer: "Zero"

I pounded the pavement for 25 years and that scenario never occurred.
Once in a blue moon a person would say "I was speeding, I deserve a ticket", but nobody ever said "I was speeding, give me a ticket".

 

[robdeforge]

IMO the time violation in disc golf is a lot like speeding on the road. Both are illegal but the more you do it and the more extremely you do it the more likely you are to face repercussions from it.

IMO they're different in that with a radar gun, you can be pretty darn sure when somebody is speeding. less ambiguity.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

This is similar to what I've said in other threads, but probably worth saying again:

The PDGA rule book is written with the primary focus that it be useful in application by the card, and only the card, while playing sanctioned events. It, like anything else, is not perfect. However, when evaluating any of the specific rules, it is important to keep in mind that the primary enforcement will be by 3 or 4 people, each of who is primarily focused on their own game. There is no referee watching every movement, there are no clock operators, there is no announcer, there is no centralized video review control center.

In point of fact, 99+% of rule enforcement is done by the player themselves. We, as individuals, make sure we take a legal stance, take legal putts, mark our lies properly, report our scores properly, etc. Otherwise, this game doesn't work.

The way the time rule is written is not designed for us to precisely police ourselves, and this seems to me to be by intention. This isn't a game of shot clocks. It seems to me to be a reminder that we need to move the game along, be courteous to the other players and that you don't have the right to play a shot without a headwind. Otherwise, the other people on the card get to call you on taking an unreasonable amount of time. That 30 seconds isn't there for the guy stuck deep in the rough, it's to prevent someone from, say, waiting for the wind to drop on every … single … putt. It's because there are people who will attempt to abuse these kinds of things (one way or the other).

:clap: :clap: :clap:

I'll just add that the DGPT and majors are a small fraction of the events where the PDGA's rules are applicable. Relying on any "resources" beyond what the typical player and their cardmates should be expected to have, isn't feasible.

 

[mojorooks]

IMO the time violation in disc golf is a lot like speeding on the road. Both are illegal but the more you do it and the more extremely you do it the more likely you are to face repercussions from it.

LOL! I also was thinking about comparing it to speeding. I go 10 over all the time fully aware that I could get pulled over and given a ticket. It never happens even when I pass a police officer but he's fully in his rights to do so. Next time I get pulled over for speeding I'm going to try "i've been speeding on this road for 5 years and you haven't ticketed me before". See where that gets me

 

[seedlings]

This is similar to what I've said in other threads, but probably worth saying again:

The PDGA rule book is written with the primary focus that it be useful in application by the card, and only the card, while playing sanctioned events. It, like anything else, is not perfect. However, when evaluating any of the specific rules, it is important to keep in mind that the primary enforcement will be by 3 or 4 people, each of who is primarily focused on their own game. There is no referee watching every movement, there are no clock operators, there is no announcer, there is no centralized video review control center.

In point of fact, 99+% of rule enforcement is done by the player themselves. We, as individuals, make sure we take a legal stance, take legal putts, mark our lies properly, report our scores properly, etc. Otherwise, this game doesn't work.

The way the time rule is written is not designed for us to precisely police ourselves, and this seems to me to be by intention. This isn't a game of shot clocks. It seems to me to be a reminder that we need to move the game along, be courteous to the other players and that you don't have the right to play a shot without a headwind. Otherwise, the other people on the card get to call you on taking an unreasonable amount of time. That 30 seconds isn't there for the guy stuck deep in the rough, it's to prevent someone from, say, waiting for the wind to drop on every … single … putt. It's because there are people who will attempt to abuse these kinds of things (one way or the other).

I'm learning. You say the time rule is not designed to be precisely police by the card. Is that the same for the entire rest of the rule book? IOW, are there any rules that are hard and fast, or is the entire rule book explicitly general guideline? I ask because of disc golf's desire to grow like other sports, that detail should be regularly reminded by commentators.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

IMO the time violation in disc golf is a lot like speeding on the road. Both are illegal but the more you do it and the more extremely you do it the more likely you are to face repercussions from it.

Made the same analogy a couple of weeks ago.

In reality, the 30 sec clock is a lot like speeding. Go a bit over once in a while, probs never get called on it. But the more frequently you do it (or the more eggregious a single incident is), the more you invite the call.

If someone speeds all the time, it seems ridiculous they should get bent out of shape when they finally get a ticket. Nikko's a habitual speeder, and he finally got ticketed.

Instead of just paying the fine and moving on, he pitched a fit and ended up in jail for a more serious violation.

 

[mojorooks]

...final answer: "Zero"

I pounded the pavement for 25 years and that scenario never occurred.
Once in a blue moon a person would say "I was speeding, I deserve a ticket", but nobody ever said "I was speeding, give me a ticket".

How about this theory:

A family sedan will get pulled over less often than a bright red sports car. If you are driving down the road and a vehicle catches your eye, it does the same for the officer. Same might go for something with a loud engine.

In the disc golf world, a play that keeps his cool and is generally a pleasant person to play with will probably never get called for a time violation. But a guy that throws a temper tantrum at every missed putt will have a target on his back. Like Nikko.

 

[Nick Pacific]

I think most that have been playing for awhile, have distances pretty much dialed in. I kind of just look at the pin and trust my arm. I don't have the ability to be given a number and then throw that number. There is no magic number connection between my brain and arm. You can tell me the pin is 166 ft. I can't distinguish between 166 and 175, with use of numbers. I just throw it at the pin.....Oh, about yeh far away.

Same here. I like to go by feel, and a range finder only adds to more complications and things to do/worry about. I'm not a slow player by any means, but I'm not exactly speedy Gonzalez out there either, and the last thing I want to do is to slow my play even more so and draw that kind of attention.

Plus there is no way in hell I'm not losing it within the first year.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

Maybe should be its own tread but i do think Brodie said alot of good things about time in discgolf in Foundations latest video. . .that the live rounds takes to much time and we should find ways to speed things up.
And i agree, a full round of DGN takes a LONG time and lots of the things he said makes sense.

He gave one example, GG was WAY in the woods trying to find a way to throw,,....the rest of the card stood in the fairway waiting and over 300ft from their lie. . .Brodie just started to walk up to his lie so he was at his disc ready to throw after GG had thrown. . .but the rest of the card was 300ft away when GG threw. . so a few minutes past as they walked up to thir discs.


I wonder how much faster a round would go if we had just 1min to throw after the person before you had thrown their disc? . .When player A throws player B has 1min to walk up to his disc, and throw. ...and say you could ask for "time" a few times per round if you need extra time for a difficult lie.
Sure it would be hard if player A hits the first tree and player B throws 500ft in to the woods. . .but is it a rule that player B has to stand behind player A and wait for him to throw or CAN player B start to walk up to their discs before player A throws?

it is a courtesy violation to move ahead of the player that is throwing. So basically we are like a ball golf group moving down the fairway where every cart stops at every ball until they hit, instead of spreading out to their own balls. It is a timing disaster when this happens on the golf course and disc golf rules require it. We are way behind the time game because of the way we play our way around the course.

 

[Rastnav]

I'm learning. You say the time rule is not designed to be precisely police by the card. Is that the same for the entire rest of the rule book? IOW, are there any rules that are hard and fast, or is the entire rule book explicitly general guideline? I ask because of disc golf's desire to grow like other sports, that detail should be regularly reminded by commentators.

This doesn't sound like a genuine question, but rather the search for a fight.

But, treating it as a genuine question, all of the rules have some ambiguity in application.

Let's take one of them, the requirement to be on the lie when releasing, with no supporting point past the lie. Can you honestly say that you always know whether someone straddle putting is or is not past the lie with their other foot? On a shot with a run up is their a painted box your foot has to hit? Would you know if someone did or did not touch the lie with the end of their shoe as they threw? Does the shoe have an upward curved toe? Did it actually contact the playing surface?

Or, how about the fact that the lie is defined relative to the line of play? Do you know the exact line of play? What about if you can't actually see the basket?

Even the most precise of the written rules require the assumption of good faith effort by the player.