2014 United States Disc Golf Championship

[Dave242]

Related thread drift - Tournament staffer pounds a temporary "No Parking" sign in the ground before the round. The first group comes through and a player's disc hits the sign kicking it OB. The TD discovers the sign was put in the wrong place after a few more groups have passed through. Is it okay to remove the sign or move it to another place on the hole?

A ground bee nest is discovered during the round close to an OB line. Is it okay to pound a warning sign in the ground or even insert a few orange warning flags surrounding the area during the round?

No issue at all....as long as there is no video evidence for the internet minions to get their panties in a wad over.

It is certainly a bad practice to do that, but I do not think the rules stipulate what a non-playing TD can or cannot do during the round regarding moving obstacles around. Regarding a playing TD moving an obstacle mid round or players marking a bee nest....I do not see this a whole lot differently from moving an unattached branch in one's lie: A non-issue. But, if the rule was that you had to replace said branch to the same position after the throw, I think my opinion on your scenarios would change.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

You may or may not realize that discs gain and lose weight on a regular basis, especially if it is hot and humid. Discs pick up and lose grams all of the time.?

Not sure where this ever started but disc golf discs are not made of nylon and do not absorb "grams" of water weight nor will they lose that much.

The percentage increase in weight of plastics if immersed in water of even low grade quality plastics is under 2% of total weight with nylons being around 10%. Disc golf discs are made of much higher quality which if I understand the polymers used would be less than 1/2 percent that equates to .8 if a gram at the most.

 

[BgWvDave]

According the Competition Manual having the entire group come over to discuss seems pointless and/or very weak: 1.11.D Non-playing certified officials appointed by the Tournament Director may actively make rulings during any tournament play that they witness. ... The official's ruling supersedes the ruling of the group, but an appeal may be made to the Tournament Director.

Talking about "weak", would a suitable outcome have been to have Paul take a provisional throw with the chair moved and get an official ruling later on?

I don't know the role of the other official who I saw in the video, but knowing him quite well, I have a hard time seeing him being a resource to get to an accurate decision in a speedy manner.

From my perspective,this is an easy one. Have the spotter remove the chair:
803.01 Obstacles and Relief A.....A player is allowed to request that other people remove themselves and/or their belongings from the player's stance or line of play. There is no other rule in the current rulebook that contradicts this.....just some memories of past rulebooks that do.

You are correct on most accounts. again the Marshalls job was to assist players in making the call. I guess we can argue about semantics here as I was a Marshall and I am a certified official but that is another subject.

again hind sight is 20/20 803.01A was the correct rule BUT I did not have an opportunity to get there as once again the entire situation was over in 90ish seconds.

Yes I would have LOVED for Paul to throw a provisional and let the TD take as much time as needed afterwards to make the correct ruling. This would have made me warm and fuzzy inside for sure. but that did not happen

I did hear second hand that Paul may have thought that moving he chair even as a provisional could have incurred some sort of penalty. once again to be very clear I heard this from a secondary source and have no idea of its validity.

 

[Mr. Anderson]

So now there is question when using a provisional throw is appropriate? After 30 seconds of looking at each other and not making a rule decision ... play a provisional. Done. Now go finish your round.

 

[Dana]

Not sure where this ever started but disc golf discs are not made of nylon and do not absorb "grams" of water weight nor will they lose that much.

The percentage increase in weight of plastics if immersed in water of even low grade quality plastics is under 2% of total weight with nylons being around 10%. Disc golf discs are made of much higher quality which if I understand the polymers used would be less than 1/2 percent that equates to .8 if a gram at the most.

Ok, then how do you explain a disc gaining and losing weight?

I watched it happen in Japan this year.

 

[Mr. Anderson]

Related thread drift - Tournament staffer pounds a temporary "No Parking" sign in the ground before the round. The first group comes through and a player's disc hits the sign kicking it OB. The TD discovers the sign was put in the wrong place after a few more groups have passed through. Is it okay to remove the sign or move it to another place on the hole?

A ground bee nest is discovered during the round close to an OB line. Is it okay to pound a warning sign in the ground or even insert a few orange warning flags surrounding the area during the round?

As TD you want to make the playing field as even as possible. If it involves safety, of course you might have to modify the course mid round. But if at all possible you leave it alone until the round is over.

Like was said, mark the bees nest with paint or post a sign behind the tee pad warning participants.

Not to know immediately that personal property can be moved that is obviously not apart of the course was an issue.

 

[1978]

Not sure where this ever started but disc golf discs are not made of nylon and do not absorb "grams" of water weight nor will they lose that much.

The percentage increase in weight of plastics if immersed in water of even low grade quality plastics is under 2% of total weight with nylons being around 10%. Disc golf discs are made of much higher quality which if I understand the polymers used would be less than 1/2 percent that equates to .8 if a gram at the most.

We can't weigh discs at tournaments until disc companies learn how to make discs and weigh them before they sell them.

 

[Tpro]

The biggest problem with the chair situation is that no one had a Rule BOOK! Not the officials, not the player, not the player's caddie. Why was it ever necessary to call a PDGA official?
And yes, McBeth didn't wait for the final, official ruling. And bigwave, you seem like a nice guy, but admit it, you( and the other officials) made a mistake. Get over it, admit it and let's all move on.

Having Paul Burro and Dave there to Assist should of been good enough for anyone. They didnt make the wrong call... from what I understand there wasnt really a call made at all.. McBeth walked up and threw his shot. Did it cost him strokes yes, did it cost him the tournament.... No the missed 25-30 footer (he always makes) did. If it would have been me I would of had the chair moved and honestly everyone there probably would of been ok with it. You can beat the dead horse all you want but to Blame BigWave Burro and Paul (all great guys and personal friends) basically for Paul making the wrong call and loosing the tournament because of it (of course not typing that last part in) for your just wrong.

Edit: Paul hits that putt on one, goes to 17 and wins. That I have no doubt about.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

We can't weigh discs at tournaments until disc companies learn how to make discs and weigh them before they sell them.

true. I have seen nearly entire orders of over-weight illegal discs let alone just off weight stickers'

 

[1978]

Burro is ugly and doesn't like dogs. My dog had been there the whole round so I made him putt over it. This is what he thinks of you thinking he made a bad call.

 

[Dave242]

again the Marshalls job was to assist players in making the call. I guess we can argue about semantics here as I was a Marshall and I am a certified official but that is another subject.

This is actually an interesting subject (to me at least) since I see no document outlining the role and qualification of a Marshall anywhere (after several Google searches on pdga.com and usdgc.com).

What is the official role of a Marshall regarding officiating rules?
Who deputizes them and under what authority?
Can they overrule spotters who are certified officials?
Or, are Marshalls more roving hosts/concierges working for the TD overseeing operations?
Can a Marshall then be not certified as an official?

All I can find in my searches is this from http://www.pdga.com/files/2004-01-06BODMeetingMinutesApproved_0.pdf
The Marshall Program continues to move forward. In general, Tournament Directors' responses to the
concept is good. 12-16 applicants have been identified, candidates will be finalized shortly. Orientation will
be held during the upcoming NT Committee teleconference call at the end of January.

 

[1978]

I like how my other dog looks like hes been shocked...

 

[tbird888]

I like the lean. Must not like Ranger bags very much.

 

[Dave242]

:doh::wall: Maybe it would help if I learned to spell Marshal. Back to searching.....

I must have thought the program was dreamt up by Steve Dodge.

 

[threevok]

Or he's fixin' to sprinkle.

 

[1978]

Or he's fixin' to sprinkle.

That would have made my day. Bill is a great guy he just isn't the nicest smelling person.
And BTW that's how you make erosion control on a NEW course. (before you lose all your soil)

What was this thread about?

 

[BgWvDave]

This is actually an interesting subject (to me at least) since I see no document outlining the role and qualification of a Marshall anywhere (after several Google searches on pdga.com and usdgc.com).

What is the official role of a Marshall regarding officiating rules?
Who deputizes them and under what authority?
Can they overrule spotters who are certified officials?
Or, are Marshalls more roving hosts/concierges working for the TD overseeing operations?
Can a Marshall then be not certified as an official?

All I can find in my searches is this from http://www.pdga.com/files/2004-01-06BODMeetingMinutesApproved_0.pdf
The Marshall Program continues to move forward. In general, Tournament Directors' responses to the
concept is good. 12-16 applicants have been identified, candidates will be finalized shortly. Orientation will
be held during the upcoming NT Committee teleconference call at the end of January.

This may be thread worthy in and of itself. my take and obviously this is merely opinion, is that we are there in an official capacity to assist if requested. I seem to remember Mcbeth basically asking us once we arrived on the scene if it could be moved. from that point the 3 people on hand began the discussion and only the 2 marshals and the USDGC Official were voicing opinions. now myself and Burro are certified officials. I am assuming Bergey is as well but can not confirm. The rules state that I am allowed as a certified official to make decisions of this nature and I was fully ready to do so if I had to. But it was my feeling that we should have treaded extremely lightly here and work with the players as opposed to taking complete control of the situation and forcing our opinions on the matter.

Now is that thought process correct and preferable is another matter of contention. In hindsight I think I should have been much more forceful in the situation and taken more control over it. But I was hesitant for sure as I was yielding to the senior members of the staff. And again to speak to something Rob Kelly brought up. I am not on tour and I do not officiate in any majors and super tours other than the USDGC's. Mike the PDGA official we were waiting for does and he is extremely experienced in these matters. That is why I was willing to wait a minute to have his Professional opinion on the matter. as that is what he is, a paid professional official. I am just a volunteer trying to do what I thought was right.

 

[BgWvDave]

What was this thread about?

apparently #chairgate and how bad me and Bill are at officiating :\

 

[Dave242]

More goodies that answer some of my questions:

http://www.pdga.com/files/2008-09-16BODSummitMinutesApproved_0.pdf
Marshal Program:
- The Marshal Program needs some help. We need to make sure that all Marshals are well trained and well versed in the rules. Maybe we can add more responsibilities for the Marshals (such as writing articles or doing online scoring) to increase their perceived worth.
- Historically the number 1 thing we need to do is deliver a PDGA presence at big events. This can be done with a Marshal, board member or PDGA staff.

http://www.pdga.com/files/2003-11-19BODMeetingMinutesApproved_0.pdf
Event Agreement/2004 Marshal Plan
The Marshal Plan has been formalized. Dave acknowledged that based on feedback from focus groups
general acceptance of the concept was positive . Candidates will be selected by the Board, and hired as
Independent Contractors, with agreements in place.
Discussion ensued regarding the financial viability of the program, keeping the Marshals supplied with
PDGA merchandise, and TD consent to PDGA merchandising.
Board Motion Nez/Pete (Marshal Program)
That the Marshal's Program, having been approved for 1 year, be implemented at the NT level and above,
with co-operation at the Supertour level and below.
Unanimous Motion Passed.

Unable to find anything else that is more complete and concise.

 

[BgWvDave]

Dave242 Here is an example of where the Marshal's came in handy during the USDGC's. The most common thing that I had to do over the course of the week and it came up a multiple times was helping the players understand the "special" rules that applied to certain holes. 2 of my holes 9 and 10 had a special rule that if a shot at any point on the hole went out of bounds the only 2 options you had was to either play from your previous lie or throw from the drop zone with a 1 stroke penalty.

several players throughout the weekend Open and Performance competitors would throw out of bounds and then bend down to pick up their mini and proceed to the last spot in bounds. As a Marshall I was able to back up other competitors in the group letting that player know that, that was not an option. A lot of my time was also used to fill in when my spotters were late, needed a bathroom break etc.