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2016 Am Worlds - Madison, Wi

Last, honestly my going well was directed at the Majors. That the PDGA is narrowing the field and making entry more merit based. Hence the experimentation with ratings based applications. Since they aren't doing anything of the kind for Ams, that is a clear message that they view it differently, that and the fact they've said so.
 
So, what I'm hearing is that there may be two communities, Emporia and Charlotte, that would have to courses and resources to do a split Am Worlds. That there might be one company, Dynamic Discs, who has experience enough to co-ordinate a split Am Worlds. That we are afraid of volunteer and taxpayer burnout because there are only so many disc golfers we can count on in our community to assist in this type of thing and that the taxpayers are going to be upset because they won't be able to use the parks and courses. And I'm hearing that the Am Worlds is designed to be a fun event. I did have fun last year but I also viewed it as the "World Championship" competition for which I qualified.

So maybe back-to-back championships in the same community may be a stretch. But, I think it still needs looking into. If Emporia and Charlotte want to give a look, by all means. If one is in July and the other is in August, mores the better. You can make corrections and adjustments for the second one based on the snafus from the first.

I gotta believe there are more volunteer pools out there than are being currently utilized. Any college or community colleges with Parks and Rec programs? Couldn't those students and staff be approached for assistance? Scouting groups that need community service projects completed for merit badges? Senior groups to act as guides, rangers and spotters? I think we become too comfortable and dependent on just asking the people we know, other disc golfers.

My original contention is inclusion for all. Not just for the ams who want to turn pro, but the guys and gals who have been supporting this sport for years. With the decrease in the number of spots for older players, the grumbling is justified. You're limiting my access to this fun event for the sake of growing the sport when a lot of the older players have been supporting it all along. But, also, for inclusion of our communities. The Scouts, the students, the seniors, the chambers etc. Too often I see on this site and others that we feel we are not taken seriously, our courses are being pulled, we damage the trees and land, and on and on. Maybe it is time we reached out side our comfort zones and included other parts of our communities in our sport.

I'll get off the soap box in a minute. I still believe there is a need for a split AM worlds. Obviously not now, but some day. If it is a designed to be a fun event, then allow more people to have fun. If you want to make it more restrictive, restrict it. But give all that want to be included the opportunity to be included.
 
So, what I'm hearing is that there may be two communities, Emporia and Charlotte, that would have to courses and resources to do a split Am Worlds. That there might be one company, Dynamic Discs, who has experience enough to co-ordinate a split Am Worlds. That we are afraid of volunteer and taxpayer burnout because there are only so many disc golfers we can count on in our community to assist in this type of thing and that the taxpayers are going to be upset because they won't be able to use the parks and courses. And I'm hearing that the Am Worlds is designed to be a fun event. I did have fun last year but I also viewed it as the "World Championship" competition for which I qualified.

So maybe back-to-back championships in the same community may be a stretch. But, I think it still needs looking into. If Emporia and Charlotte want to give a look, by all means. If one is in July and the other is in August, mores the better. You can make corrections and adjustments for the second one based on the snafus from the first.

I gotta believe there are more volunteer pools out there than are being currently utilized. Any college or community colleges with Parks and Rec programs? Couldn't those students and staff be approached for assistance? Scouting groups that need community service projects completed for merit badges? Senior groups to act as guides, rangers and spotters? I think we become too comfortable and dependent on just asking the people we know, other disc golfers.

My original contention is inclusion for all. Not just for the ams who want to turn pro, but the guys and gals who have been supporting this sport for years. With the decrease in the number of spots for older players, the grumbling is justified. You're limiting my access to this fun event for the sake of growing the sport when a lot of the older players have been supporting it all along. But, also, for inclusion of our communities. The Scouts, the students, the seniors, the chambers etc. Too often I see on this site and others that we feel we are not taken seriously, our courses are being pulled, we damage the trees and land, and on and on. Maybe it is time we reached out side our comfort zones and included other parts of our communities in our sport.

I'll get off the soap box in a minute. I still believe there is a need for a split AM worlds. Obviously not now, but some day. If it is a designed to be a fun event, then allow more people to have fun. If you want to make it more restrictive, restrict it. But give all that want to be included the opportunity to be included.

Legit question: Who are you to make these grand, sweeping, accusatory generalizations when you have two posts to your name and no location to speak of?
 
If you are planning one event, aren't you in fact planning two or more? You do one event, take a break, rest the courses and use the same formula, template, plan, what have you for the second. I'll admit, I am not a TD...

classic!
 
But it's just that easy.

Because, you know...EVERY city in America is bidding, right? Because it's easy and such a money maker. Yeah.
 
Asst TD (and the one who primarily developed the proposed course schedule, pool configurations, etc.) here. Far too many points to address, especially ones that are completely out of our control such as the registration process and qualification criteria, but I did want to touch on a few things.

We've been working on this for five years, from when we first started to talk about it, to when we bid in 2012 and 2013 for 2015, to when we bid again last year for 2016. At the time of our original bids for 2015, we were proposing a capacity of 648, but that was when the PDGA allowed you to use some courses three times in a day (such as 8:00, 11:30, and 3:00 tee times). When the 2016 bid guidelines came out, they were only allowing use of a course for two rounds in a day, to make it easier on staff and to allow for some cushion for weather delays, etc. They even included a table that showed expected capacity / field sizes based on number of courses. It shows 576 players for six courses, which we have the equivalent of with two 27s and three 18s. The PDGA knew what they were getting with our bid. We also only got awarded the bid in May of last year, so we had 14 months to get ready post-award, as opposed to the two or three years that is normally afforded. It's a good thing we put a lot of thought into our bids, and are not trying to bite off more than we can chew.

We've also been very clear that we would prefer a great experience for a smaller field rather than a good experience for a slightly larger field, and that we wanted everyone to get the "Madison disc golf experience" by playing each of the major courses in the immediate area. The bid guidelines, at least for 2015 and prior, stated that the courses should be within 20 miles of the event center. All of our courses are within 20 miles and a 30-minute drive of the host hotel. We've got it scheduled so that everyone only has one day where they play two rounds, with those two courses being the one closest to the host hotel (Hiestand) and one that is a 15-minute drive from Hiestand (Cap Springs). The 27-hole courses and Elver (which is furthest from the host hotel) are all played as a person's only round of the day. Everyone plays each course once, except for the Legends and the youngest Juniors (8-y.o. and younger) who only play four 18-hole rounds (they miss Cap Springs). We're not planning for fivesomes, or packing 108 players onto a 27-hole course ... we want to try and avoid five-plus hour rounds at a place like Bird's Ruins in the middle of July. The schedule works out very, very nicely for 576.

There was a comment a few pages back about the women and youth getting hit the hardest. We have room for 112 juniors, which would only be beat by Kalamazoo last year, which had 118. The next closest was 93 from 2014. One of the reasons some of the junior divisional caps still aren't as large as some would like is that this year is the first with the four new junior divisions, M(F)J5/6, which are 8&under and 6&under. We have to at least start off with four per division, so that is 16 new slots ... if any of those don't fill, I suspect the extra slots will be added to other junior divisions. As for women, we have room for 64, which would be the third largest (Kalamazoo had 79 and Charlotte had 72, and they both had total fields over 700). Those are the only two that had at least 40 spots for Advanced Women, which is what we have. Over the previous 10 years, the percentage of women players out of the total in the event ranged from 7.1% to 10.5%. Based on current capacity, ours is 11.1%. The percentage for Juniors in the previous 10 years ranged from 9.2% to 15.7%. Ours is 19.4%. If I did my math correctly, based on PDGA members that competed in at least one sanctioned event in 2015, the percentages of women and juniors out of the total were each approximately 7%.

Finally, if there is consideration to splitting up Am Worlds into two events, I can't imagine asking any one place to host both. Remember, this is an eight-day event, with five days of major competition, plus the players' meeting, field events, flymart, doubles, ancillary events, etc. Knowing how much planning went into this, not knowing how I'll survive the event itself, and realizing the impact on the local disc golfers whose courses will be closed for significant portions of time as is, it seems unfathomable to try and increase the demands on one host that would come from such an arrangement.
:hfive: Thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule preparing for one of the biggest tournaments of the year to address those points and bring some sanity back to the conversation.

And thanks to you and your crew for all the work prep'ing and running Worlds this year.
 
Three years is with planning aforethought is vastly different than two months spur of the moment.

And I'd rather not play one or two of my Worlds rounds on a hastily thrown together temp course just so we can squeeze more players into the event.

Also the "2016 expansionist" people are missing that things have been planned around a 576 number for a long time. If you want to add a couple courses and bump the player count by 100-150 players... do those additional player packs just appear out of thin air? Maybe a bigger venue needs to be booked for the player meeting now. Where does the staff come from for the additional courses? Pools and schedules now need to be completely reworked. There are a myriad of other details that need to be considered and comprehended beyond just adding a couple temp courses.


^^ QFT



I agree that points based tiered registration isn't ideal. However, if you look at the top point earners it's not typically players that just travel to one big event. Most of them have 10, 20, or 30 events played in a year.

You are totally discounting and ignoring the fact that this worlds is basically advanced men/masters centric. There are 20+ girls on the waitlist for advanced women, and way too many divisions with only 2-3 players. That is NOT an inclusive Worlds event, and it does not support the growth of the sport regardless of if it was planned 2 months ago or 20 years ago. A field of 244 advanced men, vs a field of 40 women with a large wait list. where do the 100-150 players come from? What a question. They are already on your wait lists. Anyways, running the event is a boat load of work. Sorry to complain before the event starts. I know tons of people not advanced men or masters really bummed at what feels like a small field.
 
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Scored my campsite!! Skipping both campgrounds that have courses because there is no shade. Instead, I chose the smaller Babcock Park that has 100% full shade for every site.

Let's fill it up with disc golfers!!!
 
I gotta believe there are more volunteer pools out there than are being currently utilized. Any college or community colleges with Parks and Rec programs? Couldn't those students and staff be approached for assistance? Scouting groups that need community service projects completed for merit badges? Senior groups to act as guides, rangers and spotters? I think we become too comfortable and dependent on just asking the people we know, other disc golfers.

You probably should have started this paragraph with: "I know nothing about actually getting volunteers to help, have never tried it, or helped with it in any context, much less disc golf, so take my opinion as pretty much baseless"

Dude, we can't even get people who CARE about disc golf to volunteer for a lousy 2 hour work party, and you want the TD volunteer team to now......oh Christ why am I typing?
 
:hfive: Thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule preparing for one of the biggest tournaments of the year to address those points and bring some sanity back to the conversation.

And thanks to you and your crew for all the work prep'ing and running Worlds this year.

Agreed! Tis a bunch of work and listening to the moaning about it has to be a misery. Especially given that the things being moaned about are out of the organizers control.
 
You are totally discounting and ignoring the fact that this worlds is basically advanced men/masters centric. There are 20+ girls on the waitlist for advanced women, and way too many divisions with only 2-3 players. That is NOT an inclusive Worlds event, and it does not support the growth of the sport regardless of if it was planned 2 months ago or 20 years ago. A field of 244 advanced men, vs a field of 40 women with a large wait list. where do the 100-150 players come from? What a question. They are already on your wait lists. Anyways, running the event is a boat load of work. Sorry to complain before the event starts. I know tons of people not advanced men or masters really bummed at what feels like a small field.

You are so right! So, lets do the math. 28,000 active men, and 2,200 active women, darn it, where's my calculator... Oh yeah, 2,200 over 28,000, carry the... crud. hmmmm, looks like about 7%. Do do do, 40 over 240 is, do do do, 17%!!!!! Man! That is so unfair!

Math, sometimes it bites.
 
You are so right! So, lets do the math. 28,000 active men, and 2,200 active women, darn it, where's my calculator... Oh yeah, 2,200 over 28,000, carry the... crud. hmmmm, looks like about 7%. Do do do, 40 over 240 is, do do do, 17%!!!!! Man! That is so unfair!

Math, sometimes it bites.

Makes sense. We should probably do a headcount and only let so many African American guys in to Worlds? Or LBGT? You get the point that setting Divisions to conform to our current demographics doesn't encouraging those demographics from evolving. We should make sure that we have enough spots to accommodate growth in Juniors and Female Divisions if they are the area that the PDGA wants to grow.
 
Makes sense. We should probably do a headcount and only let so many African American guys in to Worlds? Or LBGT? You get the point that setting Divisions to conform to our current demographics doesn't encouraging those demographics from evolving. We should make sure that we have enough spots to accommodate growth in Juniors and Female Divisions if they are the area that the PDGA wants to grow.

Wow, took that out of bounds in a hurry. The original post claimed that we were being unfair to women, I simply showed that based on numbers, the argument doesn't hold water. Now, as soon as you can show that the process has somehow excluded LBGT or African Americans in a biased fashion, then I'll accept you have an argument.

The goal of the event isn't to grow divisions, it never was. It was to make a big fun event for Ams. You can read about it on the PDGA web site. Let me see, I think it was last weekend that the Global Woman's event,set up by VJ, was run. If I recall, it had the express purpose of growing women's participation. I know that locally, here in Houston, there are also Junior events that have the goal of growing Jr. participation (thanks Susan M. for Womens, and Andi L. for Jr events).

Again, people are expecting this to be something other than what it is, and that expectation is based on, "I, or someone I know, got left out."

BTW - this is the reason the PDGA had to shut down the DISCussion board. Too many unrealistic expectations.
 
Volunteering

You probably should have started this paragraph with: "I know nothing about actually getting volunteers to help, have never tried it, or helped with it in any context, much less disc golf, so take my opinion as pretty much baseless"

Dude, we can't even get people who CARE about disc golf to volunteer for a lousy 2 hour work party, and you want the TD volunteer team to now......oh Christ why am I typing?

YES!! THIS. Soooo, to all of the people who think they should just "add another course" or "have two tournaments back to back"?

If Am Worlds was being held within 100 miles of your town, how many of you would take 2 days off of work to volunteer at the tournament, much less 1 or 2 weeks?

Where do you think these volunteers come from? Someone mentioned Boys Scouts and church groups. What does it say about our sport when we are looking elsewhere for volunteers to run OUR events, which by the way, aren't money-makers for the TDs or clubs running them. Boy Scouts don't get community service hours for helping run a tournament unless the tournament is for charity, and even then probably not. (Before you ask, Most DG clubs arent charitable entities, because tax reporting is too onerous. I know bc my club checked).

The REAL issue here that has been touched on, and WHY so few cities bid on Worlds, is that the pool of disc golfers who volunteer is limited and the hassle of TDing and hosting such an event is enormous. Even here in a Major US city, WE see it at every work day and major tournament here, and its always the same few familiar faces. And also the same familiar group that complains, but cant be bothered to "grab a shovel"

And speaking of Boy Scouts, we had a Boy Scout approach us to pour concrete tees at a local course for his Eagle Scout project. A SIGNIFICANT MAJORITY of the $7k+ he raised was from NON-disc golfers. When it came time for the work day, few disc golfers showed up to help, but many more flamed him online afterwards for where the club decided to put the permanent tees.

In Economics, this is known as the "free-rider problem" and we are a sport full of free-riders. Many complaints on this thread are that the demand for openings in Am Worlds is greater than the supply of openings. The factors that increase that supply take years to lay down, and start with volunteers, putting courses in, maintaining them, and helping run a tournament of this magnitude.


I used to live in Madison, and have played ALL the courses they are proposing to use for 2016 Am Worlds. I'm also familiar with the "other course options" that some have asked about (there aren't any). The amount of quality courses they've been able to build in a town the size of Madison is simply amazing. Glide is rightly focused on the quality of the experience for the attendees, trying to represent the city, courses and the local DG community well, rather than maximize the number of attendees. Glide is great and I know first-hand that they know how to run tournaments from the great experience I had playing in the Mad-City Open.

IMO, the TDs made the right choice, they are using the courses available, which are all good to very good, and I have no doubt they will put on a good Worlds. Watch the live coverage, look at the courses and you will see why they didnt need or want to water down the experience by forcing some/all pools to play some slapped-together temp course. In a city the size of Madison, its not like they have tons of huge spaces that would even fit such a course. Also, its impressive they are able to gather enough VOLUNTEERS to put this on in a city that size. This isn't Chicago, Houston, or LA. This is a college town, in a state with a more deer than people, putting on one of the biggest tournaments OF THE YEAR, for AMs!!!


Maybe as the sport grows, they SHOULD split up Jrs/Adv and the other Age-protected into two tournaments, but why not have those two tournaments held at different times AND places like they are doing with Pro Worlds(assuming they even get enough bids)? Who cares if the old guys/gals play different courses than the young'uns do.
 
:hfive: Thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule preparing for one of the biggest tournaments of the year to address those points and bring some sanity back to the conversation.

And thanks to you and your crew for all the work prep'ing and running Worlds this year.

Absolutely! Glide and blowfly ... many thanks.
 
You are so right! So, lets do the math. 28,000 active men, and 2,200 active women, darn it, where's my calculator... Oh yeah, 2,200 over 28,000, carry the... crud. hmmmm, looks like about 7%. Do do do, 40 over 240 is, do do do, 17%!!!!! Man! That is so unfair!

Math, sometimes it bites.

We should then do the same with minorities and disabled, just use math. Offer resources based on their % of the population, but never use the math as evidence we have a problem growing certain demographics. The point is 17% is too small if the population is over 50% women, that is using math. So why not do more to make the sport more available to them. Lets just make the field of open advanced 576 put in 40 total women and go from there; that is 7%. I still think it is dumb to have 9 divisions under 4 registered. Last year 2 divisions were like that. The math is this: Last year v This year - Advanced Women 50/40, Advanced Master Women 19/11, Junior 1 Boys 40/35, girls 7/3, JIIB 32/27, JIIG 9/3, J III B, 16/12, J IV B, 6/2. Every growth division is down. If you dont see the futility in offering up a world title in 9 divisions that have 4 or less, especially when players are out there that would expand those cards, I can't help you. Why so many comments on what happened in the past! Isnt the point of "growth" to be better than what was in the past, to do more, grow more? I would have not liked to be part of the 2012 World championship if it strove to be as good as events 4-5 years prior.

The best players in the world shouldnt have a 10 minute sign up window. A junior during the time of SAT's and final exams and graduation shouldnt be forced to sign up for 4 spots from 12:00 to 12:10AM that is ludacris, whether it is the PDGA's issue or the LOC.
 
So, what I'm hearing is that there may be two communities, Emporia and Charlotte, that would have to courses and resources to do a split Am Worlds. That there might be one company, Dynamic Discs, who has experience enough to co-ordinate a split Am Worlds. That we are afraid of volunteer and taxpayer burnout because there are only so many disc golfers we can count on in our community to assist in this type of thing and that the taxpayers are going to be upset because they won't be able to use the parks and courses. And I'm hearing that the Am Worlds is designed to be a fun event. I did have fun last year but I also viewed it as the "World Championship" competition for which I qualified.

So maybe back-to-back championships in the same community may be a stretch. But, I think it still needs looking into. If Emporia and Charlotte want to give a look, by all means. If one is in July and the other is in August, mores the better. You can make corrections and adjustments for the second one based on the snafus from the first.

I gotta believe there are more volunteer pools out there than are being currently utilized. Any college or community colleges with Parks and Rec programs? Couldn't those students and staff be approached for assistance? Scouting groups that need community service projects completed for merit badges? Senior groups to act as guides, rangers and spotters? I think we become too comfortable and dependent on just asking the people we know, other disc golfers.

My original contention is inclusion for all. Not just for the ams who want to turn pro, but the guys and gals who have been supporting this sport for years. With the decrease in the number of spots for older players, the grumbling is justified. You're limiting my access to this fun event for the sake of growing the sport when a lot of the older players have been supporting it all along. But, also, for inclusion of our communities. The Scouts, the students, the seniors, the chambers etc. Too often I see on this site and others that we feel we are not taken seriously, our courses are being pulled, we damage the trees and land, and on and on. Maybe it is time we reached out side our comfort zones and included other parts of our communities in our sport.

I'll get off the soap box in a minute. I still believe there is a need for a split AM worlds. Obviously not now, but some day. If it is a designed to be a fun event, then allow more people to have fun. If you want to make it more restrictive, restrict it. But give all that want to be included the opportunity to be included.

issues people have posed in red
solutions happylender proposed in blue

'nuff said.

Hop to it, buddy. You still have time for the 2018 bids
 
I understand fully that we are stuck with the event as it is for this year but what can be done in the future to improve am worlds? With the amazing growth of tournament disc golfers and the fact that premier events sell out almost immediately what can be done? I don't think any club or even a group of clubs in the same city would be able to have enough tournament quality courses available so that everyone who wants to play gets the chance to. The possible exception might be Charlotte but even with enough quality courses would they be able to get enough support help to do it using say 15 courses for an am worlds only bid? The only big change that would slightly lesson the capacity issue is going to the gbo ledgestone model of 1 rd a day with tee times. That would increase attendance but it would certainly change the tournament from the typical 6 prelim rds to only 4 if the same starting and ending days remain. Even if you decide to change qualification criteria to something else the problem remains what new format do you choose? Whatever is decided will still alienate and anger the group who now doesn't qualify. It seems that in a sport where volunteers are needed to make an event run and there really isn't much money to be made by hosting (in relation to all the work required) the am disc golf really shouldn't be very hopeful that things will get much better anytime soon.

The benefit Charlotte had is that you didnt have to use all 16 courses 2 rounds a day. You can schedule Juniors to bound back and forth on age appropriate courses, even though we ran a combined worlds in 2012, a course like Bailey was only used 2 days but was appropriate for Juniors and grandmasters. In the future using 12 courses, 12 TD's only are needed 2 days and 6 on alternating days. and make a worlds of 864. 12 courses 1 day 6 courses the next with tee times then 12 then 6. everyone playing 2 rounds day 1 and 1 round day 2, 2 rounds, 1 round, semis 6 courses / finals..
 

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