2018 Competition Rules Changes

[roadtripstuff]

It's definitely going to affect the smaller divisions and I am willing to bet MPO fields at smaller events as well.

 

[Karl]

I say emphatically NO! It makes you "doing what PDGA is forcing you to do."

100% correct...with heavy emphasis on the word "forcing". The PTBs ARE subtly steering us into what THEY want to have...but wouldn't dare tip their hand for fear of retribution. Little steps toward something(s). Intent / transparency is sorely lacking....

 

[roblee]

First impression is this is at least an additional burden on the TD. Effect on various divisions is speculation but I doubt this is positive. I'm curious about "why" also. Really need input from Chuck and others in the know to understand the rational and ultimate goal.

 

[sidewinder22]

100% correct...with heavy emphasis on the word "forcing". The PTBs ARE subtly steering us into what THEY want to have...but wouldn't dare tip their hand for fear of retribution. Little steps toward something(s). Intent / transparency is sorely lacking....

The PDGA isn't "forcing" anyone to do anything, unless you voluntarily join them. You don't even have to "blood out" of this organization.

 

[araytx]

First impression is this is at least an additional burden on the TD. Effect on various divisions is speculation but I doubt this is positive. I'm curious about "why" also. Really need input from Chuck and others in the know to understand the rational and ultimate goal.

Pretty clear to me that by now that the Competition Committee people are reading these threads, and they have intentionally stayed away from commenting. I am starting to get it. It appears to me now that there were a number of pro men pushing for this change.

 

[JC17393]

For the ams who want to test the waters in Pro (women and age protected players included), there has long been an option that, because of merch in lieu of cash being available, has been somewhat forgotten. Now seems the ideal time for it to become more prominent: trophy-only entry fees. Players pay 1/3 to 1/2 of the full entry fee to play a pro division. They opt out of payout of any kind, only being eligible for whatever trophies are available.

If rule change is really going to cause smaller fields in Pro divisions (I don't think it will), then the solution for TDs that are concerned about it is to start offering the trophy-only entries more prominently.

 

[Karl]

Maybe 'forcing' (in the literal sense) is too strong, but "steering" you heavily in the direction they want IF you ARE a member is still too much for me. Choices are usually...and they a lessening them with these changes. But pretty typical from any organization - from a local club all the way to our government (people love to control the actions of others).

 

[DavidSauls]

Perhaps "coercing" is the word you're looking for.

 

[Karl]

I do know that my typing this early in the morning is pitiful....

 

[_MTL_]

I strongly 100% support the idea that to enter a professional division, you should be a current PDGA member. Choosing to play pro means that you have either invested some time into getting good or you want to compete with the best players at that event. A C and B tier in recreational shouldn't require membership b/c that would deter local semi-competitive players from entering, but this thread / rule is about pros, not amateurs.

As a pro, I get frustrated when other players I'm playing with don't know the rules. While this will always be the case, in some situations the player is not current or has never been a member. Many times the player in that situation says "I didn't know that" or "hmm, at doubles we just flip the disc" or "well, last time I played an event 5 years ago, we could do this." At least when this happens with a current member, I know this person received a rule book. The excuse for not knowing is 100% on them at that point.

However the solution to this isn't getting membership after the fact, it's up front. I like the idea that if an amateur takes their first cash, they have to pony up the additional $25. This solves the issue of someone signing up as an amateur but playing professional the entire year with the intention of taking cash. But forcing someone into current as a pro simply because they cashed makes very little sense.

I also look at it from a TD perspective. It's pretty easy before an event to track who isn't current and collect any $10 fees - 95% of the time players pay this in their online registration. But now I have to keep track of the pros that aren't current and then deal with that. As someone who runs an event the third weekend in January, I'm not looking forward to it where this will happen a few more times.

I understand the rationale behind this, however the execution is poor.

 

[Horsman]

Im shocked to not see some of the td's not complaining about the new AM rules on payouts. Extra leg work if they don't spend it day of. I know local club in my area you have to be a member and have your payout stamped if you want to save it. Looks like PDGA is pushing for online vending vs local clubs.

1.10
4. If a TD uses merchandise vouchers for Amateur payout, they must be
redeemable at the event or afterwards via online fulfillment.
5. Any prizes (cash or merchandise) that remain unclaimed (through no fault
of the TD) six months after the completion of the event are then relinquished
by the player. TDs must make a reasonable effort to provide the payout to
the player by contacting them, offering to ship, etc.

"ONLINE FULFILLMENT" is a very broad term. To me it could simply mean that you facebook message the TD and buy stuff they have available that isnt online anywhere instead of having to have an online shop.

 

[_MTL_]

Im shocked to not see some of the td's not complaining about the new AM rules on payouts. Extra leg work if they don't spend it day of. I know local club in my area you have to be a member and have your payout stamped if you want to save it. Looks like PDGA is pushing for online vending vs local clubs.

1.10
4. If a TD uses merchandise vouchers for Amateur payout, they must be
redeemable at the event or afterwards via online fulfillment.
5. Any prizes (cash or merchandise) that remain unclaimed (through no fault
of the TD) six months after the completion of the event are then relinquished
by the player. TDs must make a reasonable effort to provide the payout to
the player by contacting them, offering to ship, etc.

The reason TD's aren't complaining is any good TD read that and thought the same thing I did - "Why would I not have payout available at the end of the event?!?"

 

[bnbanbury]

I have to laugh at the idea a little of a couple of guys who didn't cash having cash passed down to them. Pros always have opinions about what Ams should get and people love to say dumb things like "lets just give everyone a participation trophy."

Now you will have pros who didn't shoot well enough to beat the Ams in their division get paid out for their efforts. Talk about being compensated just for participating

 

[Horsman]

So I didnt know that the whole playing for a trophy only in a division at the cost of a reduced entry fee was a thing. Now that I know that I like that. Subsequently Ive had hours of conversations now since the rules came out as how to cheat them, for purposes of just seeing whats possible. On the topic of Ams playing pro. We thought that you could (like the option for trophy only at a reduced entry fee) have an option for the Am to say they are playing for trophy only and then hook them up with a players pack worth majority of their entry fee. They would pay the same amount as the others in open but just receive their "payout" up front. Would this be allowed or practical?

 

[biscoe]

whether it is legal or not you could almost certainly get away with it. actually a good idea although it does reduce the purse a bit.

 

[_MTL_]

I just read through the Comp Manual in full.

A few interesting things I found (beyond what's already been noted)

- C-Tier events have the option to randomly mix divisions for groupings (first
round ONLY) with the exception that Junior II - Junior VI divisional players
should only be mixed with other players from those same divisions.

I think this is a terrible idea and hope that TD's would not do this. It's a competitive advantage / disadvantage to be on certain parts of a course at certain times of the day. Example would be if a storm came was coming through - it would be an advantage to be in the woods rather than the open at that time due to the winds. Some of this is uncontrollable, but TD's should try to limit things like that when possible.

- First round "Super Groups" for media purposes are NOT allowed unless for live
coverage and previously approved by each player within the group and by the
PDGA Tour Manager.

I find this interesting that a player in the group can say no to the group. This is a good thing.

- Events with more than two rounds must post payout (including all added cash)
prior to the start of the last round.

This is important and a great clarification of something that should be happening already. Some player's don't like to know - they don't have to look.

- In the event of ties for lowest score across
all previous rounds, the ties shall be broken by the lower PDGA number having
the higher ranking amongst the tied players and then alphabetical by last name
for any tied players without a PDGA number.

A subtle change - currently, you can do whatever you want as long as it's consistent. This manner is suggested. It seems like that is the way to do it now.

- Being a Certified Official does NOT make an individual a Tournament Official
who can make rulings at PDGA events.

- The Tournament Director may empower volunteers to act as spotters for a
specific spotting purpose, but the ruling of a spotter does NOT supersede the
ruling of the group.

Good clarifications. A lot of the time, people think "I'm an official" but that doesn't give them the right to make calls.

- A player must properly identify themselves by name and PDGA number when
competing in a PDGA-sanctioned event. Players who wish to remain anonymous
or who assume a false identity will be disqualified from the event and face
potential suspension from the PDGA tour.

This is good. Nicknames are fun, but not professional.

-. In PDGA Majors and National Tour events, the group consists of the players
themselves, each player's individual caddy, any active Tournament staff such
as leaderboard attendants, Tournament Officials, etc. and any credentialed
Page 18 PDGA Competition Manual 3.05 — 3.08
media ONLY. No other people may be with the playing group. All others (including
players who have already finished their round) are considered spectators
and must remain in designated spectator areas away from the playing group.

Good.

 

[JC17393]

So I didnt know that the whole playing for a trophy only in a division at the cost of a reduced entry fee was a thing. Now that I know that I like that. Subsequently Ive had hours of conversations now since the rules came out as how to cheat them, for purposes of just seeing whats possible. On the topic of Ams playing pro. We thought that you could (like the option for trophy only at a reduced entry fee) have an option for the Am to say they are playing for trophy only and then hook them up with a players pack worth majority of their entry fee. They would pay the same amount as the others in open but just receive their "payout" up front. Would this be allowed or practical?

Seems impractical on the surface, unless it's a player pack you're assembling for the ams anyway. As for allowed or not, it's hard to say. There is the requirement that 85% (in C-tiers) or 100% (B-tiers) of net entries has to be paid out in the pro purse (Table 1 of Tour Standards) and that the pro purse is defined as the cash paid to the top finishers (min. top 40%). A player pack in lieu of cash going into the purse could cause issues with that math, though added cash could be enough to balance it out though.

As for the trophy-only entry...I'm not sure how any TD wouldn't have been aware of it even if they didn't offer it. It's been right there on the cover page of the TD report for years.

 

[_MTL_]

As for the trophy-only entry...I'm not sure how any TD wouldn't have been aware of it even if they didn't offer it. It's been right there on the cover page of the TD report for years.

Most of the updates aren't changes, rather clarifications.

 

[Karl]

The reason TD's aren't complaining is any good TD read that and thought the same thing I did - "Why would I not have payout available at the end of the event?!?"

Up here in the northeast a LOT of TDs simply hand you a slip of paper as 'funny money' redeemable at a brick & mortar store near by (b&m has no web presence and the td has no merchandise at the event). Per the letter of the law here (1.10E4...either merchandise vended there/then or 'on-line' merch) this now won't be an option. Unless there is some wiggle room here, this 'mandate' is bad.
If true, the TD had better disclose such stuff via the event flyer / signup, etc.

 

[Horsman]

Seems impractical on the surface, unless it's a player pack you're assembling for the ams anyway. As for allowed or not, it's hard to say. There is the requirement that 85% (in C-tiers) or 100% (B-tiers) of net entries has to be paid out in the pro purse (Table 1 of Tour Standards) and that the pro purse is defined as the cash paid to the top finishers (min. top 40%). A player pack in lieu of cash going into the purse could cause issues with that math, though added cash could be enough to balance it out though.

As for the trophy-only entry...I'm not sure how any TD wouldn't have been aware of it even if they didn't offer it. It's been right there on the cover page of the TD report for years.

Ive only pseudo TD'd so I have never had to submit a TD report but Im surprised that that didnt come up in my conversations.