2018 Competition Rules Changes

[Discette]

This was just ONE reason for changing the rule back to not allowing Ams to accept merch instead of cash. I don't think it is as rare as you do. As in, don't worry if you see a cockroach in your kitchen, after all, it is only ONE roach!

I think the greatest pressure came from the Pro players, not the TD's.

• Professional player complaints about non-members and Amateur members taking winnings out of the Pro divisions purses.


The Pros want the Ams to play Pro so they can build the Pro purse. Then Pros get upset that an Am player is taking money (or merch equivalent) out of the Pro purse.


Going forward, if an Am wants to take money from the Pro Purse, they have to become a Pro first. In the past, an Am prepping for Am Worlds, could have their Pro cake and eat it too. Now, if they want merch, they play Am, if they want Pro experience, they play Pro (and decline the payout).

With this change, maybe more TD's will offer the Trophy Only Pro option at events.

 

[_MTL_]

With this change, maybe more TD's will offer the Trophy Only Pro option at events.

Agreed. It's a fantastic option.

 

[discgman]

The open fields for big events filling up by ams is the exact reason for this rule. Pros have been complaining about it for years. Why should ams who pay less in pdga dues be able to register in pro events and accept prizes filling up a spot for a pro on the waitlist? Will the pro division shrink? Maybe. Will ams try to move up now? We shall see.

 

[discgman]

I'm ok with forcing membership for non-members in pro divisions. I'm not ok that it happens after the fact, rather than up front as Biscoe alluded to. This adds more work to TD's and I imagine this would happen more at smaller events which will traditionally have more inexperienced TDs.

I think the Am taking merch in open was a great solution to players waiting for Am worlds, which is going to happen. In the big A tiers and such, it's not a big deal that these players play advanced. However it's a major issue with these players are the best players in their area and would compete for the win in open.

Could the pdga just bill the offending player after the fact or the next time they register for pdga?

 

[discgman]

What don't you understand? I don't have enough skill to be competitive as a pro, so there is no possibility of placing, so no motivation to spend money that I will never see a return on. Do you have any idea how much it costs me to play your Ledgestone tourney? I can't justify spending money that took me a year to save up just so I can (maybe) take home a trophy. I'm not saying the only reason I go is so I can get stuff, and your player packs are great, but it helps if I can sell some merch and maybe recoup some of the money I spent, or get something that I otherwise could not afford to buy. Love of the sport only goes so far, and some amateurs are traveling thousands of miles to attend tournaments without the benefit of sponsors and the ability to win purses. How can I justify paying you $100 to play in your tourney when I know that a big chunk of it will be given to a pro, and I know for a fact that I will receive nothing, no matter how well I play. I can't wait to see what happens when all you big-tournament TDs realize that the ams aren't coming. Gonna be fun to watch.

Not sure how you think the am purse helps pay the pro purse. Pros are paying way more than 100 dollars to play the ledgestone with a less attractive players package. Ams players pack is even with cost to play pretty much. Regarding costs of travel and such, pros suffer the same fate except they get a lower package and could miss out on cashing period.

 

[discgman]

I believe a much simpler approach to addressing this supposed issue of non-members "poaching" cash would be to tighten membership requirements to play in tournaments. Right now it's required to be a current member to play in an A-tier. Why not extend that requirement to the pro divisions of B-tiers, or a similar step?

Great idea! You cannot register for this NT tournament unless you pay the difference in am and pro pdga dues and you take certified test. If they do this when you register it saves the TD's alot of headache.

 

[tbonesocrul]

Even when we have a novice division most of them still sign up for rec... maybe its an ego thing and they don't want to be called novices?

I like playing in bigger divisions, it gives me the opportunity to play with more people. From my small sample size, there really isn't much difference in the scores for the winners of AM3 and AM4. So i would rather play in a larger division to play with more new people.

 

[brutalbrutus]

Not sure how you think the am purse helps pay the pro purse. Pros are paying way more than 100 dollars to play the ledgestone with a less attractive players package. Ams players pack is even with cost to play pretty much. Regarding costs of travel and such, pros suffer the same fate except they get a lower package and could miss out on cashing period.

I think he is referring to when TDs use the profit on merch for the AMs to offset added cash to the pro purse. Not every A/B tier gets sponsorship money to cover the required added cash.

I like playing in bigger divisions, it gives me the opportunity to play with more people. From my small sample size, there really isn't much difference in the scores for the winners of AM3 and AM4. So i would rather play in a larger division to play with more new people.

I still play rec sometimes depending on the course/competitors. I just don't like being the highest rated guy in Rec.

 

[araytx]

This was just ONE reason for changing the rule back to not allowing Ams to accept merch instead of cash. I don't think it is as rare as you do. As in, don't worry if you see a cockroach in your kitchen, after all, it is only ONE roach!

I think the greatest pressure came from the Pro players, not the TD's.

• Professional player complaints about non-members and Amateur members taking winnings out of the Pro divisions purses.


The Pros want the Ams to play Pro so they can build the Pro purse. Then Pros get upset that an Am player is taking money (or merch equivalent) out of the Pro purse.


Going forward, if an Am wants to take money from the Pro Purse, they have to become a Pro first. In the past, an Am prepping for Am Worlds, could have their Pro cake and eat it too. Now, if they want merch, they play Am, if they want Pro experience, they play Pro (and decline the payout).

With this change, maybe more TD's will offer the Trophy Only Pro option at events.

FINALLY!

Someone has the balls to say what's behind all of this in reality. That's why those other reasons seem like whitewash or trying to either justify or feel good. A full set of reasons and this little add-on is the main thing. Suzette says it like she knows it, and the pros need to jsut man up and say the truth.

"The greatest complaints (pressure) came from pros who just don't want Ams (first) taking "winnings" out of the purse. If that's the #1 and primary reason, then why fluff us with all that other stuff ... most of which can be easily solved with a committee of good minds and the simple charge to find a solution. What my blue ribbon committee can't solve is "pros just don't want us playing in the division with them."

And I say that emphatically because the pros can't be calling it "winnings" if someone else beat you -- it's next-participant-in-line.

And I'll take you at your word that you're sure that (this) scenario isn't all that rare:

An Am player playing in pro division

1) TELLS a TD he's declining cash;
2) then weeks later said Am CHANGES HIS MIND and asks for merch in lieu of cash;
3) said Am is told that the TD has already distributed that prize;
4) said Am COMPLAINS to PDGA that the TD violated a rule or cheated him out of his prize or something like that; and
5) PDGA offices rules that the TD MUST give equivalent merch to said Am.​

Did I correctly summarize what you said happened? I am gonna contend that if that happens more than once or twice, seems more like a set-up scam to me.

 

[Karl]

Agreed. It's a fantastic option.

But not at 25%-50% of entry fee rates!
If the "pros" get paid out in net cash in (their share of the pay in minus 'expenses' - which should be equally spread out over each and every player there) and, for argument's sake, the expenses per person are $8 (sanctioning fees, insurance, porto-, etc.), a reasonable "trophy only" entry fee would be that or a tiny amount more.

 

[biscoe]

But not at 25%-50% of entry fee rates!
If the "pros" get paid out in net cash in (their share of the pay in minus 'expenses' - which should be equally spread out over each and every player there) and, for argument's sake, the expenses per person are $8 (sanctioning fees, insurance, porto-, etc.), a reasonable "trophy only" entry fee would be that or a tiny amount more.

because there is no inherent value in organized competition... :\

 

[araytx]

The open fields for big events filling up by ams is the exact reason for this rule. Pros have been complaining about it for years. Why should ams who pay less in pdga dues be able to register in pro events and accept prizes filling up a spot for a pro on the waitlist? Will the pro division shrink? Maybe. Will ams try to move up now? We shall see.

I can't see that $25 in PDGA dues is an unsolvable issue and can keep current structure. It isn't. Because if it were, PDGA could create an Am Silver option (same cost of dues as pro) and move on, giving Am Silvers (only) the option to play in pro events and accept merch in lieu.

And I can't see that "taking a spot on waitlist away from a pro" is an unsolvable issue either. TDs already use tiered registration for many events and all they'd have to do is tier the registration so that the Am Silver can't register until there had been significant time up front for pros wanting to register.

And no pro, other than Discette and a couple others, have addressed the pro wanting to get a higher prize money amount than he actually won. If it's that big of an issue, then let the Am's "winnings" be kept by the hard-working TD for his efforts than passing it down to the next participant-in-line. I'd personally much rather do that in my case.

Not sure how you think the am purse helps pay the pro purse. Pros are paying way more than 100 dollars to play the ledgestone with a less attractive players package. Ams players pack is even with cost to play pretty much. Regarding costs of travel and such, pros suffer the same fate except they get a lower package and could miss out on cashing period.

Locally my people don't, but it is not uncommon for the markup between Am merch and actual cost to be used to subsidized the added cash to the pro divisions. That markup in big tournaments is VERY significant.

Great idea! You cannot register for this NT tournament unless you pay the difference in am and pro pdga dues and you take certified test. If they do this when you register it saves the TD's alot of headache.

As I've said on other threads, there is a HUGE difference between the non-member and a long time dues paying Am member of the PDGA. Huge. As I said above Am Silver solves it and we can keep current constraints.



Summary: Here's what I believe now. Discg, at least Discette said what it really was. The complaining pros just don't want Ams playing with them. Period. All the other stuff stated was fluff and glitter, clouded around the real and primary reason. If those others were really the reasons, then all of us who are proposing possible solutions to those other reasons would be listened to, and those possible solutions discussed. But we're not.

My grandfather, God rest his soul, taught me this lesson more that 50 years ago when I was a little boy. I saw a neighbor, one who I thought was a good friend of Daddy's just flat-out abuse him verbally when asked him for help with something. I asked him, "Daddy, why did he talk at you like that? You just asked him for some help." And he replied, in his southern drawl of a black man who had grown up in the 1930s, "Boy, some people's idea is 'if I don't want my neighbor to borrow my wheelbarrow, any excuse will do.' "

But not at 25%-50% of entry fee rates!
If the "pros" get paid out in net cash in (their share of the pay in minus 'expenses' - which should be equally spread out over each and every player there) and, for argument's sake, the expenses per person are $8 (sanctioning fees, insurance, porto-, etc.), a reasonable "trophy only" entry fee would be that or a tiny amount more.

For me personally, I'd want to be paying 1/3 or less of what the "I-do-get-a-chance-to-get-compensated-for-good-play" players are paying.

 

[biscoe]

FINALLY!



And I'll take you at your word that you're sure that (this) scenario isn't all that rare:

An Am player playing in pro division

1) TELLS a TD he's declining cash;
2) then weeks later said Am CHANGES HIS MIND and asks for merch in lieu of cash;
3) said Am is told that the TD has already distributed that prize;
4) said Am COMPLAINS to PDGA that the TD violated a rule or cheated him out of his prize or something like that; and
5) PDGA offices rules that the TD MUST give equivalent merch to said Am.​

Did I correctly summarize what you said happened? I am gonna contend that if that happens more than once or twice, seems more like a set-up scam to me.

Sounds pretty rare to me... as in i have never heard of it happening in 20 years of playing and running events of all levels.

Of course, i have also never heard a pro complain about an Am playing up taking money out of the purse. In general they are thankful the Ams are playing up because they mean more money in the purse.

 

[NegaSnapples]

Of course, i have also never heard a pro complain about an Am playing up taking money out of the purse. In general they are thankful the Ams are playing up because they mean more money in the purse.

Yeah this right here. Wouldn't a 1000 rated player WANT a ~950 player playing up and pumping money into the purse? I guess I'm just really confused as to how AM players are "taking" money from the pro purse.

In before "They're taking spots from pros". Have tiered registration based on ratings. Problem solved.

 

[Karl]

because there is no inherent value in organized competition... :\

The only reason I said such is that "pros" get "paid out" usually ALL the monies they put in (minus TD expenses) so why should an "am" not get dealt with the same way?

 

[Karl]

Yeah this right here. Wouldn't a 1000 rated player WANT a ~950 player playing up and pumping money into the purse? I guess I'm just really confused as to how AM players are "taking" money from the pro purse.

In before "They're taking spots from pros". Have tiered registration based on ratings. Problem solved.

I USUALLY get (from AMs) "why are you playing AM?" Has happened for a decade plus now. But THIS year I finally ran into the other side of the coin (after playing more Pro events than AM ones): "why are you playing Pro? (a pro asked me knowing I'd be declining cash / taking it in merch)"

Obviously I just can't get it straight! Silly me.

 

[teemkey]

...
Of course, i have also never heard a pro complain about an Am playing up taking money out of the purse. In general they are thankful the Ams are playing up because they mean more money in the purse.

What's the chance that a significant segment of the complaining pros (and PDGA CC & BOD) simply don't like Ams winning anything other than a trophy?

 

[Steve West]

It seems to me the only result of having the current split between pros and ams is all the shenanigans it takes to try to maintain the current split between pros and ams.

If a split is needed, is the act of pocketing a few bucks in cash the all-important watershed event that changes the nature of a player forever? While repeatedly getting hundreds of dollars in store credit is completely ignorable? Wouldn't a split based on skill level (or accomplishments) make more sense?

 

[Karl]

What's the chance that a significant segment of the complaining pros (and PDGA CC & BOD) simply don't like Ams winning anything other than a trophy?

IMO, pretty good.

 

[biscoe]

It seems to me the only result of having the current split between pros and ams is all the shenanigans it takes to try to maintain the current split between pros and ams.

If a split is needed, is the act of pocketing a few bucks in cash the all-important watershed event that changes the nature of a player forever? While repeatedly getting hundreds of dollars in store credit is completely ignorable? Wouldn't a split based on skill level (or accomplishments) make more sense?

While the current state leaves much to be desired I would be opposed to any system which forces players to "go pro". Most of the issues now are resultant from the fact that way too many people do it already (myself included) which imo is still partially hangover from the early days of the game when Pros pre-existed Ams.

If the pro tours can ever gain any real traction (admittedly questionable at best- and by traction i mean money coming in from outside the game) I would like to see an upper tier (more or less NT) of events open to only those who qualify in some manner as "tour pros" and a lower tier of events (more or less C tier) from which those players are excluded with another tier or 2 in between. Accepting cash in the lower tier would not force a player into pro, accepting cash in a tier open to the tour players would. There are probably a lot of holes in this theory as I am more or less making it up on the spot.

Until there is money coming in from outside the sport in a significant fashion there will always be a demand for players to fill out the field as "donors" whether they are 920 players at your local C tier or 980 players at USDGC.