BlueBerry Hill vrs Flip City

[optidiscic]

TomJulio I really want to play Flip...I'm sure its very good but I have now played with more than one player who has told me Flip doesnt stack up with other courses in the challenge department. Everyone admits its remarkable and beautiful though. I admire your dedication to your course but you are viewed as a homer and it might serve you well to admit some of Flip's shortcomings in an honest way. You'd gain more credibility...as it is I am beginning to think you don't know what a good course is. Everyone likes something different and a relatively easy but interesting and beautiful course is not such a bad thing. Just because not everyone gives flip a 5 doesnt mean its a bad thing. My home course gets dinged for being too hard and will never enjoy the fame of flip though those who have played both Flip and my course report my home course far surpasses Flip in challenge. Does that mean my course is better..I don't know. I guess I am just trying to say it is impossible to please everyone and if Flip was more difficult you'd lose points from the masses...if it had more tees and baskets to serve diffrnt levels of players it might be viewed as cluttered...Seems its a slice of heaven out there in western michigan I wanna play it but being offended that it somehow ranks #2 out of close to 4000 courses does seem humorous to most of us. I will give you credit I've baited you numerous times for a flame war and you never bite. So just to gain some credibility can you admit a few things that Flip could improve/add/have that might make it appeal to those wanting more challenge.

 

[Mark R]

Flip is adequately challenging to most players. In April, the best score was even out of 37 players.

 

[optidiscic]

Flip is adequately challenging to most players. In April, the best score was even out of 37 players.

I'm sure I would be far over even

 

[Dave242]

As Chuck points to here, SSA's look to range from 66.5 to 68 for 24 holes playing from the long tees. This is equivalent to SSA's of 50 to 53 for 18 hole courses.

I stand corrected on my thoughts. Although these SSA's are not indicative of super-hard courses, they do indicate that Flip is moderately hard to score in the even par range (counting everything there as par 3) in tournament play.

I do stand corrected (I say this especially to tomjulio), but I have to admit that I am terribly surprised. I played 2 rounds and shot 74 & 76. This is in the 940-950 range, but with all the putts I missed and other screw-ups that resulted from me being absolutely beat (I had played the 4 24-hole Mason County courses in 85 degree heat in direct sun already as well as Oshtemo). I figured there was no way I was playing above 900 rated that day.

In tournament play, are there any added OB or alternate basket locations used?

 

[Scoot_er]

Maple Hill?

Seriously...ot os on my top 5 for sure and I have a hard time putting another course in front of it!!!!

I still can't find something that it lacks and the holes are pretty much all awesome.

 

[tomjulio]

TomJulio I really want to play Flip...I'm sure its very good but I have now played with more than one player who has told me Flip doesnt stack up with other courses in the challenge department. Everyone admits its remarkable and beautiful though. I admire your dedication to your course but you are viewed as a homer and it might serve you well to admit some of Flip's shortcomings in an honest way. You'd gain more credibility...as it is I am beginning to think you don't know what a good course is. Everyone likes something different and a relatively easy but interesting and beautiful course is not such a bad thing. Just because not everyone gives flip a 5 doesnt mean its a bad thing. My home course gets dinged for being too hard and will never enjoy the fame of flip though those who have played both Flip and my course report my home course far surpasses Flip in challenge. Does that mean my course is better..I don't know. I guess I am just trying to say it is impossible to please everyone and if Flip was more difficult you'd lose points from the masses...if it had more tees and baskets to serve diffrnt levels of players it might be viewed as cluttered...Seems its a slice of heaven out there in western michigan I wanna play it but being offended that it somehow ranks #2 out of close to 4000 courses does seem humorous to most of us. I will give you credit I've baited you numerous times for a flame war and you never bite. So just to gain some credibility can you admit a few things that Flip could improve/add/have that might make it appeal to those wanting more challenge.

Ain't a "homer" sparky...see Milwaukee, WI in my profile? eh? That ain't Michigan.

I do take a WHOLE month once a year to travel across the lake and PLAY these amazing courses both casually, leagues, and in tourneys. There is something magical that I haven't found elsewhere in my short time playing. I have heard the same from those that have been all over this country, both pro and casual. It is what it is.

BUT when someone claims Flip is easy, or doesn't live up to something, then they can bite me....for dear lord they do not know what they are saying...or possessed by some sort of hellish demon creature.

Gain credibility? Hell...what good would that do me in day to day life?

 

[tomjulio]

As Chuck points to here, SSA's look to range from 66.5 to 68 for 24 holes playing from the long tees. This is equivalent to SSA's of 50 to 53 for 18 hole courses.

I stand corrected on my thoughts. Although these SSA's are not indicative of super-hard courses, they do indicate that Flip is moderately hard to score in the even par range (counting everything there as par 3) in tournament play.

I do stand corrected (I say this especially to tomjulio), but I have to admit that I am terribly surprised. I played 2 rounds and shot 74 & 76. This is in the 940-950 range, but with all the putts I missed and other screw-ups that resulted from me being absolutely beat (I had played the 4 24-hole Mason County courses in 85 degree heat in direct sun already as well as Oshtemo). I figured there was no way I was playing above 900 rated that day.

In tournament play, are there any added OB or alternate basket locations used?

Round ratings for Flip this weekend (72 par/24 holes)...

74=931
76=915

Course record from tourneys:
one -12 (Mike Durco)
a few -11's (Dave Feldberg)
a few -10's (Liz Carr)

In tourneys many of the rock gardens are OB, and some are strategically placed for common failed shots. Examples holes (from memory) 1/2/6/7/ 10/11 16

The main GOTCHA at Flip is the precariously placed baskets on slopes for huge risk rewards. I have seen (and gotten) many 4's going for a 2, or a 5 going for a three.

 

[deBebbler]

If Flip had sustained as much rain as Highbridge just before you played it would it be swampy? Would you lower your score based on short term conditions brought on by mother nature there? Do you really think a course rating should suffer because the region has had one of the wettest summers on record?

When I write my Blueberry review, it will not get a 5. I am not dinging it because there was a lack of shot selection/challenge/etc for there surely was not. Nor am I dinging it because it was an absolute swamp all weekend, and it surely was.

No, iloqutiss1, I do not.

As I said before...

The 5 rating, as I understand it, it for a course that needs no realistic improvement, and Blueberry needs more than a haircut/trim.

I know John has a lot on his hands, and his complex is incredible, but every course there has room for improvement. Give it 5 years worth of traffic and upgrades, and they might be there, but at this moment, they are not 5-disc courses.

 

[optidiscic]

Tom have u played highbridge I remember you saying you had planned on it.

 

[Scoot_er]

Round ratings for Flip this weekend (72 par/24 holes)...

74=931
76=915

Course record from tourneys:
one -12 (Mike Durco)
a few -11's (Dave Feldberg)
a few -10's (Liz Carr)

In tourneys many of the rock gardens are OB, and some are strategically placed for common failed shots. Examples holes (from memory) 1/2/6/7/ 10/11 16

The main GOTCHA at Flip is the precariously placed baskets on slopes for huge risk rewards. I have seen (and gotten) many 4's going for a 2, or a 5 going for a three.

Durco is good but not a top pro, Feldy probably played it a few times, and Liz is rated like 950 at most.

I say Maple Hill is much better.......care to take that on? 3 of my good friends rated higher than me agree that it is one of the best if not THE BEST!

 

[tallpaul]

A pro rating system would differ greatly from the one here. Shorter, more fun courses are preferred over tougher courses, in general, on this site. Too many lesser players will down grade a top notch pro course for simply kicking their butts. However, I would bet that even pros would find most of the ones rated very highly here as 4s or better. I like tough courses; but not necessarily the ones that are pure long thrower courses.

 

[optidiscic]

I played Maple Hill. Wow what a challenge. Maintenance issues and disc eating evergreens kept me from 5ing it. I think course maitenance is one of the top priorities as it directly affects how a course looks how it plays and minimizes buzzkilling disc searches or thorn battles. I can see if Flip is perfectly maintained how this may add points.

 

[optidiscic]

Im far from pro but enjoy a tough course as it is more rewarding and far more interesting if it is fair plenty of pros whine about tough courses but generally I do agree with the point that rec players rate down good courses because they don't shoot well

 

[tomjulio]

3 of my good friends rated higher than me agree that it is one of the best if not THE BEST!

Rated higher than you? Three people? CAN'T BE!!!!!!!!! No one is better than YOU! But if they are, they know best!

(yawn)

 

[optidiscic]

So Tom did u ever make that trip to highbridge. Yawn

 

[Scoot_er]

I played Maple Hill. Wow what a challenge. Maintenance issues and disc eating evergreens kept me from 5ing it. I think course maitenance is one of the top priorities as it directly affects how a course looks how it plays and minimizes buzzkilling disc searches or thorn battles. I can see if Flip is perfectly maintained how this may add points.

Maintenance was perfect during the event! Now I'm sure it isn't always so nice but there are par 3's, 4's, and 5's than make this place awesome and they have two of the best starting and finishing holes of any course I have played.

 

[tomjulio]

So Tom did u ever make that trip to highbridge. Yawn

eh, uh, what? Sorry, was kinda napping there...

I can neither confirm nor deny that I played Highbridge in the past few weeks, or that if I did my rating of it would cause insane outcries of "we knew you would rate it as a 4.5!"

 

[Scoot_er]

Rated higher than you? Three people? CAN'T BE!!!!!!!!! No one is better than YOU! But if they are, they know best!

(yawn)

WTF dude?

Seriously Maple Hill during this event was the most balanced course I have played with water, woods, OB walls, elevation, bridges, and a great variety of holes.

I would also rather play a 18 hole course with a SSA of 60 (+6 par 3) than a 24 hole course with an SSA of 66 ( -6 par 3's)

Also I enjoyed it much more than the artificial OB at USDGC.

 

[Scoot_er]

Rated higher than you? Three people? CAN'T BE!!!!!!!!! No one is better than YOU! But if they are, they know best!

(yawn)

BTW this event draws a better Pro field than WORLDS!!!!!!!

The course is a BIG reason! The 200+ year old rock walls lining the course also add to the character and history of the place......oh and the christmas trees are also pretty sweet!

 

[tomjulio]

I would also rather play a 18 hole course with a SSA of 60 (+6 par 3) than a 24 hole course with an SSA of 66 ( -6 par 3's)

Also I enjoyed it much more than the artificial OB at USDGC.

Of course you would, you're a sponsored player with a 1000+ rating which then makes you what..um..probably like only .000001% of the disc golfing population?

Then I would say Flip City probably isn't for you then...in many different ways.