Brodie Smith PDGA #128378

[davetherocketguy]

I'm not a lawyer buuuuuttttt...

One objection I've heard about standardizing teepads and having the PDGA establish rules about tee pads in the name of safety opens the PDGA to litigation. So if you have a DGPT event at a course where a tee pad is 3" too short or is pitched at 1% steeper than allowed and the PDGA allows the event to run and a player gets hurt on the tee shot. Who is liable? That'll be the PDGA for being negligent in checking the pads to make sure they are compliant. And then what if the PDGA investigates a particular course tees and finds a few out of spec? What happens to the event? Cancel it? I donno, having the PDGA generate tee pad standards if not done VERY carefully sounds like opening a gigantic can of worms.

But like I said I am no lawyer....

-Dave

 

[Casey 1988]

How is it a hot take to say "how about we move the teepads?", or "why aren't all teepads made from concrete?", or "can't we just standardize the teepads?" because even though I've only been playing disc golf for a short while I've heard those questions dozens of times.

I have heard it since mid 2000's when by that time with the popularity why couldn't there be standards National Tour for temp and for permeant courses. Now I mean in what the minimum materials and quality are for the DGPT and Majors in how these should be, I mean we could get some sort of stiff plywood that has been coated with plastic-dip stuff and let dry for complete temp like Toboggan where it is just set on the ground (sorry I forgot those style of course), then for others just make sure the tee pad in concrete, and fixed together paver or same for brick could be in good working order for the DGPT as a minimum.

It sucks seeing places where the players tee off and places like USDGC a Major tournament sponsored by Innova having crappy tee areas where some of the pro players have gotten injured, work with the University to have good places to tee off, it would look good for the university to be this way to attract the disc golf minded who are looking to form a good team at said school, however knowing the course is not quite the same as when USDGC is in town for the week in middle of summer.

Sorry for off topic thought. Speaking of USDGC and other places, I think in the near future the Disc Golf sport will have an actual Collage tour even if some events can't be PDGA approved or end up having to be XT before the tier due to non standard baskets. I mean 80% to 90% of Universities on up have a Course and if not a local course is not too far away, about a mile at most if not almost on campus as that is how the local course gets traction. The only problem is Prizes after but maybe that can be fixed with a special Colligate waiver or just not charging as much for entrance as most PDGA events so winners would get like under $100, I don't think from single events Colligate/University people can get more then $75 or $100 in prize stuff, I forget the rules.

 

[Jugular]

In addition to the challenges from the Parks side of things another issue comes to mind for me: how is the suggested standard determined?

While we (mostly) all agree bigger, flatter tee-pads are better, how big and flat should they be? 4'x8'? 6'x12' 8'x16'? Round or rectangular? Concrete or turf....

I would imagine this would require a statistical analysis of ideal tee conditions and how they impact play for the widest range of players possible, maybe in addition to thorough player survey. Perhaps this is already been done. It doesn't make sense to me to arbitrarily say lets put up the dollars to make them ALL X ft wide by X ft long without corresponding data to quantify the benefit of the standardized tee dimensions.

I agree with brodie that nice, standardized teepads would be great, but I feel there is a great deal of research and analysis to be done to provide an actual Cost-Benefit analysis.

Before setting up a statistical analysis you need to know what it is you're trying to achieve. Is it to allow the maximum number of players from all levels to run up and throw from the teepad? 90%? Only the pros? I feel a good starting point is something more qualitative like: Is it aesthetic? Does it seem in proportion? Is it safe for a 'typical'/average run up? Are you incentivized to follow through over the end of the pad risking injury?

Maybe we will just disagree. To set a standard now, that is not required, I don't see how it ever becomes required. There will always be a large number of courses that can and never will be able to be compliant. We take them out of the ground? Refuse to sanction any event or league there? In addition to maintenance of several courses, my club helps support, we now need to start fundraising to put in or replace pads?

I get the concept of standardization, but the practical, pragmatic, logistic application here is not realistic....again, IMO.

I think you're disagreeing with something I've not said. We mostly agree that it would be nice to have some standardisation/guidance, and can it please not cost any time or money.
Maybe it never becomes required. As I was saying earlier I doubt it becomes a 'requirement' except for high level events, and even then it could perhaps be a requirement that gets waived in certain circumstances. I think there's value in having a suggested teepad size and material. That provides an anchor when discussing with parks too:
Park: "What size pads are you going to put in?"
Club: "Uh, dunno, how big can we go?"
Park: "3' square?"
vs
Club: "Oh wait, the PDGA recommends this size; m' by n'"
Park: "Oh that doesn't work for us, can we make it a little smaller"
Club: "Sure, we think a m' by n-2' would work well, do you think that is feasible" / "If we want to host a DGPT event someday we need them this size, else our chances are much smaller"
...

And it could be argued that these type courses should have upgraded tee pads.

But, that is a pretty big expense for 100 players to throw three shot off of each pad. 300 throws to justify the expense? Not to mention, are those 300 throws enough to dictate pads for the other 362 days of play? In most cases, probably yes. You might lose a couple DGPT events though. I am not sure that Toboggan can have cement or permanent tees, due to park restrictions on the land.

Yes, this is a much more reasonable ask though. The DGPT setting standards, for bids, seems reasonable. I assume the PDGA has basic thresholds, that would have to be met, for Worlds.

Do they though? Has anyone heard of them? I would envision any initial guideline would include the vast majority of teepads on the vast majority of tournament courses. Counter to the baskets argument there is no current standard I'm aware of that needs replacing. Also, some teepads could probably be adjusted rather than completely relaid.

The more important take from Showmez Season 2 Episode 2 isn't about the length of the tee pad (although that is important)...Uli was talking about James Conrad (guest) at one course where the end of the tee pad had a 5 foot or so drop off. James made his run up and vanished off the edge...they were so worried about him that they didn't see his disc almost go in. Spoiler, he wasn't hurt.

I think disc golf needs some rules for the tee pads just to keep players from injury. Yes, you can start further back so your follow through isn't off the end of the tee pad....but having a safe follow through area would be much wiser.

Yes, as I mentioned some guidance on the state of any follow through area would be welcome too. If you don't you're asking professionals to make a risk/reward decision at certain teepads where what they're risking is their health and young men aren't very good at that calculation.

Is there no official recommended tee size/shape for tournament play? Just having official guidance would be a good place to start.

Exactly, by this time there should at least be some sort of recommendation.

Standardization limits innovation.

Without standardisation how do you define innovation? So really standardisation enables innovation, otherwise it's just a.n.other teepad.

Not to mention the first parks department this is brought up to:

So you're saying this tee pad in a wooded area is going to be busted up and removed, surrounding trees will be cut down, so a larger concrete tee pad can be installed because pros demand it?

Lolololololol

Do you want to be a course for elite play or not? You want a municipal course for leagues and B+C tiers? Great let's not damage the trees. You're a longstanding, well loved, highly-praised course? PDGA/DGPT will derogate the requirements for your tournament because there's value in retaining the best in class.

I'm not a lawyer buuuuuttttt...

One objection I've heard about standardizing teepads and having the PDGA establish rules about tee pads in the name of safety opens the PDGA to litigation. So if you have a DGPT event at a course where a tee pad is 3" too short or is pitched at 1% steeper than allowed and the PDGA allows the event to run and a player gets hurt on the tee shot. Who is liable? That'll be the PDGA for being negligent in checking the pads to make sure they are compliant. And then what if the PDGA investigates a particular course tees and finds a few out of spec? What happens to the event? Cancel it? I donno, having the PDGA generate tee pad standards if not done VERY carefully sounds like opening a gigantic can of worms.

But like I said I am no lawyer....

-Dave

It's an interesting thought, I too am not a lawyer, though I work in insurance and insurance may be available to cover that sort of eventuality, and though, yes, that is more cost, it is something that should already be in place. Since teepads can certainly shift in the ground having a requirement about being level does seem like it would be impossible to both police and implement consistently.

 

[autocrosscrx]

The tee pad thing isn't important to me at wild, but I do kind of crack up that we have the best disc golfers in the world at an event on the premier tour and they might have to hold up on their tee shot as some kids push their bikes across the designated tee pad or some lady rollerskates past.

 

[Nick Pacific]

I mean, that's Twitter in a nutshell. There's a lot of good stuff on there but I bailed a few days ago. Just wasn't worth it.

Twitter reality today is what happens when most of the adults under 50 in your population aren't spending their time on lucrative careers, raising families, homemaking and community building and engagement.

When you have entire generations (millennials and now Gen Z) working low grade service jobs, unmarried, childless and atomized from the greater community, this is the end result.

This is just the beginning, I expect to see a continual societal decline.

 

[ChrisWoj]

I mean, that's Twitter in a nutshell. There's a lot of good stuff on there but I bailed a few days ago. Just wasn't worth it.

I've never been more engaged with and aware of social justice movements around the world as I was when I was on twitter.

I've also never been more distracted throughout my day by dumb bull****.

 

[Nova P]

I've never been more engaged with and aware of social justice movements around the world as I was when I was on twitter.

I've also never been more distracted throughout my day by dumb bull****.

Twitter seems like a great activity should I decide I need to be angry or fearful every waking moment. I don't go there, and when someone points me to a tweet and wants me to read (or view) it, I ask them to just paraphrase it.

 

[ToddL]

Do they though? Has anyone heard of them? I would envision any initial guideline would include the vast majority of teepads on the vast majority of tournament courses. Counter to the baskets argument there is no current standard I'm aware of that needs replacing. Also, some teepads could probably be adjusted rather than completely relaid

Not really in a formal fashion. We check out every course being proposed, and if we think there's a deal-breaker on any of the courses, we either pass on the bid or insist that they be fixed.

 

[DiscFifty]

Maybe the DGPT could purchase 18 of these, in custom tee pad sizes and place them over existing tee pads. Not that expensive, could haul them from event to event. Could take care of any grip/safety issues. Not sure if they could be used as stand alone portable tee pads.

https://www.rubbercal.com/rubber-mat/anti-slip-floor-mats/dura-scraper-drainage-mat.html

 

[Jugular]

Not really in a formal fashion. We check out every course being proposed, and if we think there's a deal-breaker on any of the courses, we either pass on the bid or insist that they be fixed.

Does that mean someone from the PDGA physically visits the site and makes an individual judgement about whether things are deal-breakers or not? Obviously a benefit to that approach is the ability to flex unspoken requirements given local conditions and experience etc. but there are some cons too.
Reading between the lines there (which may be erroneous, so please correct me), do bids get passed on without specific feedback as to why? Or is it the thought that "there's so much wrong here it would be unfair to ask for remedies"?

 

[BillFleming]

The tee pad thing isn't important to me at wild, but I do kind of crack up that we have the best disc golfers in the world at an event on the premier tour and they might have to hold up on their tee shot as some kids push their bikes across the designated tee pad or some lady rollerskates past.

Just shows disc golf isn't a well known sport. People know to not walk across a football field, soccer field, baseball field, ball golf course. But I have seen people with a tent set up inside the island green at Watson Lake, Arizona. I have seen people laying on the grass next to a basket, just enjoying the sun, at Fountain Hills, Arizona. I have seen people just walking across the fairways, oblivious to anything around them, at Vista del Camino, Arizona (yes, I'm from Arizona so that's what I'm familiar with....I'm sure this all happens elsewhere also).

 

[Jugular]

Maybe the DGPT could purchase 18 of these, in custom tee pad sizes and place them over existing tee pads. Not that expensive, could haul them from event to event. Could take care of any grip/safety issues. Not sure if they could be used as stand alone portable tee pads.

Funnily enough they could potentially do that if there were minimum size requirements for teepads. Otherwise, they might cause a greater trip hazard than they alleviate. Alternatively, without standards they'd be buying a custom set for every course. in which case why not make them permanent additions rather than portable.

 

[elmexdela]

Just shows disc golf isn't a well known sport. People know to not walk across a football field, soccer field, baseball field, ball golf course. But I have seen people with a tent set up inside the island green at Watson Lake, Arizona. I have seen people laying on the grass next to a basket, just enjoying the sun, at Fountain Hills, Arizona. I have seen people just walking across the fairways, oblivious to anything around them, at Vista del Camino, Arizona (yes, I'm from Arizona so that's what I'm familiar with....I'm sure this all happens elsewhere also).

yeah can confirm up in mn too

 

[BillFleming]

I will add to my comment about people not walking across the fields of other sports....most other sports do have a well-defined playing area and they are usually fenced off. Disc golf is commonly in public parks and not fenced off. And compared to ball golf, which normally isn't fenced off either, disc golf courses don't look like anything different than the rest of the park.

The part that drives me nuts is Fountain Hills.....okay, you are chilling out in the fairway because you don't know it is a fairway, but, dang, the people who sit/lay right next to the basket. I mean...think about it...oh look here's a metal object with chains and a number...let's sit right next to it.

 

[Jugular]

I will add to my comment about people not walking across the fields of other sports....most other sports do have a well-defined playing area and they are usually fenced off. Disc golf is commonly in public parks and not fenced off. And compared to ball golf, which normally isn't fenced off either, disc golf courses don't look like anything different than the rest of the park.

The part that drives me nuts is Fountain Hills.....okay, you are chilling out in the fairway because you don't know it is a fairway, but, dang, the people who sit/lay right next to the basket. I mean...think about it...oh look here's a metal object with chains and a number...let's sit right next to it.

It's the designated getting in the way area!

 

[biscoe]

Does that mean someone from the PDGA physically visits the site and makes an individual judgement about whether things are deal-breakers or not? Obviously a benefit to that approach is the ability to flex unspoken requirements given local conditions and experience etc. but there are some cons too.
Reading between the lines there (which may be erroneous, so please correct me), do bids get passed on without specific feedback as to why? Or is it the thought that "there's so much wrong here it would be unfair to ask for remedies"?

When we hosted a Major (2019 USWDGC) there was a site visit involved. Pretty sure we had already gotten the event at that point. I am certain that the PDGA is not visiting all the applicants in advance of approving one. Pretty much anywhere that is going to get approved for a Major already has a proven track record I would think.

 

[ToddL]

Does that mean someone from the PDGA physically visits the site and makes an individual judgement about whether things are deal-breakers or not? Obviously a benefit to that approach is the ability to flex unspoken requirements given local conditions and experience etc. but there are some cons too.
Reading between the lines there (which may be erroneous, so please correct me), do bids get passed on without specific feedback as to why? Or is it the thought that "there's so much wrong here it would be unfair to ask for remedies"?

When we hosted a Major (2019 USWDGC) there was a site visit involved. Pretty sure we had already gotten the event at that point. I am certain that the PDGA is not visiting all the applicants in advance of approving one. Pretty much anywhere that is going to get approved for a Major already has a proven track record I would think.

During the bid process, no, we do not visit each site. We'll check out photos, watch videos from previous tournaments, ask questions to local or touring players, and send several followups to the TD who placed the bid. This could include items such as "I see there are a few busted tee pads on your course. Can you commit to replacing those before the event?" or "This course might need a couple of modifications to host these players, do you have the ability to change fairways/basket positions/etc?" After awarding the bid, we'll perform a site visit to button up any remaining details.

Your second question is worthy of a novel by itself. We treat all bids with respect and professionalism, but at the end of the day, we only award one winner. Sometimes there are several extremely high quality bids, and the best we can say is "Yours was fantastic, but those other guys were just a little bit better." Most of the time I think the shortcomings are spelled out in the Q&A back-and-forth. If we have to ask you what course you're going to be using, that's a hint that maybe next time you should include some information on your courses. If we have to ask "do you think that this 4500' course provides sufficient challenge to the MPO field?" then maybe you should build a harder course.

But also, like Biscoe said, most of the places that bid on major tournaments already have a proven track record. They are courses that we have seen for years and TDs that we have known for years. The people who are serious about bidding are also serious about their courses.

 

[R-Ogre]

I've never been more engaged with and aware of social justice movements around the world as I was when I was on twitter.

I've also never been more distracted throughout my day by dumb bull****.

Exactly. In the end I decided the juice wasn't worth the squeeze.

 

[DatRedDude]

Just shows disc golf isn't a well known sport. People know to not walk across a football field, soccer field, baseball field, ball golf course. But I have seen people with a tent set up inside the island green at Watson Lake, Arizona. I have seen people laying on the grass next to a basket, just enjoying the sun, at Fountain Hills, Arizona. I have seen people just walking across the fairways, oblivious to anything around them, at Vista del Camino, Arizona (yes, I'm from Arizona so that's what I'm familiar with....I'm sure this all happens elsewhere also).

has nothing to do with well known, all the sports you mentioned are held on private land and/or stadiums, frolf is in public parks for the most part.

private courses and clubs that are able to work with parks to shut down casual traffic don't have this issue

 

[jakebake91]

has nothing to do with well known, all the sports you mentioned are held on private land and/or stadiums, frolf is in public parks for the most part.

private courses and clubs that are able to work with parks to shut down casual traffic don't have this issue

I do think that course in public use areas could/should do a better job of signage warning people of potential hazards. Yes, baskets look like obvious things to be leary about to us, but to the oblivious, they are absolutely none the wiser.

My home course plays thru a big city park area, and even tho it's among the more popular courses around, no one knows what the baskets are or where to be on the lookout for discs. They can't recognize a "fairway".

My opinions on that, anyways.