Common Plateaus, Issues, and Breaking Through Them

[slowplastic]

I want to summarize some of the plateaus that I have been stuck at in past, what they felt like, and what I noticed was wrong/how to correct. The first step to getting better is to first identify what is wrong, the second is figuring out how to fix it, and then last is making it consistently reproducible. Hopefully this helps some people identify what is going on with their throws and leads to faster improvement.

These are the issues that happened to me at these distances, but I do notice a lot of these issues are common in people on the course and in the technique threads. Feel free to add/discuss what plateaus have happened for you to see if it was the same or different.

In general I feel like every ~30' gain is a different technique/form. Very few times did a form change give me instant distance increase, usually it was a similar distance but just felt easier or better. Over time of gaining consistency the distance would improve, until I realized that I was at a ceiling for that version of form, and that's why I'm calling each of these plateaus. I do not mean any of these titles to be "official"...just what it felt like for me in each case.

Distances are for "typical" discs of that class, for example a Roc or Buzzz for a mid, or for a fairway something like a DX or mellow star/Gstar Teebird, River, etc….not a known "long" disc of that class (like a fairway driver is not a Valkyrie or Sidewinder, or distance drivers are not some crazy understable version that flies distance lines). Distances are all on flat or slight hyzer flip releases, line drive type golf lines.

The 300' Barrier
Mids = 250-275', high and floaty with fade
Any drivers speed 6-9 = 280-300' max, all the same distance, very inconsistent
-poor grip alignment, lot of nose up flights
-strong arming, right from the reachback I was pulling hard with the arm
-legs add nothing since arm is at 100% from reachback until the end
-lots of early releases and griplocks because the arm is moving too quick and there is no defined release point
-lots of n00b hyzers (sky fairway drivers straight up to a stall-out) from poor grip and straining the strong-arming (planes hard to keep consistent)

Fix:
-throw putters and mids from a standstill with a good reach back, it eliminates a sprint up the teepad with an overpowered arm
-teaches to use a rhythm from reachback into throw…just start slow and trying to throw short 100-150' shots and increase a little at a time

The No-Snap Barrier
Fairways = 310-330', absolute max at 350'
Distance Drivers = Useless
-getting a smoother motion into the throw and not using the arm until the disc is near the chest
-not getting elbow forward enough (no right pec area for disc)…leads to "alligator arming" since you're just swinging the forearm out from the body
-dragging the disc during the throw

Fix:
-loose wrist throws with putters/mids from standstill, concentrating on getting the elbow forward (finding the power pocket)
-keep hand on outside of the disc from reachback to power pocket
-feeling the wrist load up in the power pocket and then unwinding the throw to feel it open

The ~350' Barrier
Mids = 290-300'
Fairways = 330-350'
Drivers = 340-375', absolute max at 400'
-this is where most players who play a lot and throw pretty hard end up
-getting the wrist snap (loading and unloading) which allows holding onto the disc later in the throw, increased spin, and nice straight carry
-this is a very important stage to get to
-distance drivers (not super OS ones) actually fly/glide finally, at any other stage they were inconsistent to throw

Problems:
-not good bracing/weight transfer, tipping over the front foot
-throw felt like flinging forearm at the target from the elbow, rather than using the shoulder

Improved Bracing
Mids = 300'+
Fairways = 350'+ consistently
Distance Drivers = 375-400'
-fixed planes so that reachback and throw were level, with no spine tilting in either direction
-planting into the brace leg, hip behind knee, which is behind ankle
-not tipping over the waist helps set a firm axis during the throw, that doesn't drift forwards
-can use shoulder to unwind the arm around the brace leg/axis, after in the power pocket
-does not feel like elbow is flinging forearm anymore…shoulder is doing the work

Problems:
-starting the throw by crushing the can with the plant foot (dragging the body into the throw), rather than shifting into the can crush

Bigger Power with Hips
Mids: 320'+
Fairways: 375'+
Distance Drivers: 425'+
-transfer weight of back leg directly into the brace, while still at reachback
-loads lower body and hips while upper body is still back
-can feel the hips move and it has to bring shoulders forward
-everything unloads around the brace axis in sequence from ground up
-X-step feels like it finally helps add power



Now I'm not saying my form is perfect by any means, but that's also why I hope this is helpful since I remember how all of these issues felt. Feel free to add how barriers have felt/are feeling for your throw, or any questions about how to get past some of these problems.

 

[NathanNoodleArm]

Great write up! I'm currently breaking out of the no snap stage. I am still messing around with nose angles and what you're saying about my forearm flinging from the elbow resonates with me. I recently was getting a few gazelle throws out to 350. One of these days I will get the courage to post up a video.

 

[slowplastic]

Great write up! I'm currently breaking out of the no snap stage. I am still messing around with nose angles and what you're saying about my forearm flinging from the elbow resonates with me. I recently was getting a few gazelle throws out to 350. One of these days I will get the courage to post up a video.

Sounds consistent with what I had. Get that nose down grip (and wrist) and concentrate on smooth into the power pocket then unload...and straight 350' fairway shots without too much effort should be your new normal.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Would love for you to post this up on heavydisc... Especially if you have video / pics from each level.

Hit me up with a good email address and I will send you an author account.

 

[banzai7]

Great post! Very helpful. I've been playing for around 10 years. I used to contribute a lot over at DGR about 5-6 years ago when I was really playing a lot. They helped me get to the 350' plateau using the Beato drill, etc. IIRC they weren't talking about bracing at all back then, and I was totally lost on how to get my hips and legs more involved.

Then I moved overseas and stopped playing for 5 years, with only a few casual rounds on vacations back to the U.S. So I've effectively been stuck at the ~350 plateau for 5 years! Now I'm back into DG and trying to learn proper form for real. The goal over the next year is to start hitting 425' and more importantly to be hitting my lines and eliminate grip locks and slips.

Thanks to HUB, SW22, slowplastic, et al for really helping me understand these concepts. I feel like it might actually be possible to break through this plateau.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah from reading DGR it made it seem like the "snap" was a magic thing where you either had none, a lot, or all of it. That's not how I feel anymore at all...I feel like you have it or you don't yet (the 350' fairway driver mark, with holding the disc late), and after that it's proper athletic mechanics to generate arm speed.

They talked about things like "sideways pull" and all this other stuff...when it's not about pulling in a different direction...I think it's about getting a set axis (brace) so that you can pull all the way around instead of tipping over forwards (and losing a point to rotate around). Just a different way to think about it that applies to many sports motions rather than describe weird angles around a round object.

It's definitely possible to break through those walls, and it takes less effort to throw 425' properly than to strong arm 300'.

 

[DiscFifty]

Great write up! Now...end it with a nice clear video of you bombing 400ft.

 

[zmannz1984]

...They talked about things like "sideways pull" and all this other stuff...when it's not about pulling in a different direction...I think it's about getting a set axis (brace) so that you can pull all the way around instead of tipping over forwards (and losing a point to rotate around). Just a different way to think about it that applies to many sports motions rather than describe weird angles around a round object.

It's definitely possible to break through those walls, and it takes less effort to throw 425' properly than to strong arm 300'.

Thanks for this comment, you put some thoughts into words for me. Great thread! I am stuck between no snap and the 350 barrier. Some days I can brace well, and some days I am all arm again...

 

[Rockch4lk]

I think it is important to use some higher speed, under-stable drivers early on. I tried throwing putters and mids only for a while like some suggest, and that only hurt my driver progress as I still have all kinds of nose angle issues. This has created a stage where I have little gaps between putters and fairways... My putters travel anywhere from 250' up to 270', and my fairways only around 270'. My distance driver (DD Renegade) reaches averages of maybe 310', and maxes out at 350' on a perfect throw.

I feel like if someone can get a putter to fly 270' they should be able to get a Renegade to 350' consistently, but I am not there yet. I believe that practicing nose angle early is a must, and this can be more easily done with very light and under-stable drivers speed 9-11.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[slowplastic]

I feel like if someone can get a putter to fly 270' they should be able to get a Renegade to 350' consistently, but I am not there yet. I believe that practicing nose angle early is a must, and this can be more easily done with very light and under-stable drivers speed 9-11.

I agree that people should practice with drivers, as throwing mids and putters shows how to not torque the disc and be clean, but it doesn't show how to throw hard (like a driver does), or nose angle sensitivity. The "don't throw drivers!" thing is, to me, mostly for beginners who buy a Blizzard Boss, or guys throwing 300' like I described where no disc mattered.

My experience with high speed stuff began with a star Vulcan. Initially when I was throwing in the no-snap barrier that I desribed, I threw the Vulcan with some torque and lots of speed (I was trying to be clean) and I could get it to do a crazy S-flight out to 380'. It was crazy, like 50' farther than I had ever thrown. I thought high speed drivers were automatic distance.

But, I cleaned up my form and couldn't throw the Vulcan for months...it would hyzer out every time. It wasn't until I got to that 350' mark with some snap that I could throw it again. Then over time I found it's too flippy to be reliable once I have the "real" arm speed it takes to throw faster discs somewhat properly.

So I wasn't saying never throw high speed stuff in my original post, and it was very good I had a disc like that to measure myself against....but I just didn't want to list any distance benchmarks with it at those early stages because it was so unreliable depending on the day and how much torque I had, until I could throw it more properly. And at that point throwing something more like a Destroyer gives more repeatable results.


As far as the putter distance thing:
In my first week of strong arming discs I could max out at 300' occasionally, and mids were already going up to 270'. I went through so many form variations and added 100' to drivers with mids only going ~300' in a trustworthy way (I could throw them 330' on the field occasionally, but more often than not they would act too flippy if I tried to overthrow them). I could throw putters like 230' pretty easily initally. I saw barely any added distance with mids and putters (putters up to 275' consistently for a long time...with absolute max rips to 300' occasionally but they felt different).

The thing I found is that if you're clean with a mid or putter, they float out there 250'+ very easily. You don't need to throw them all that fast, or have the nose down really. Once you get to the snap area of technique they'll fly out there way straighter...but they may not go insanely far. But, if you don't have the arm speed that doesn't necessarily translate to high speed discs. If you can throw a driver 400'+ you can definitely throw your putter over 270'...but if you can throw your putter 270' you can't necessarily throw your driver 350'...they have a bit of a different technique and arm speed requirement, and drivers need practice too.


I fully agree about throwing understable discs too...best way to make sure your planes are consistent and learn some shot shaping. Throwing neutral putters, neutral mids, straight (stable) fairway as well as slightly understable fairway drivers, and something faster that isn't beefy is the best way to get all of the variables of different throwing requirements IMO.

 

[unclevince]

Thanks for taking the time for this thread. You can tell you put some thought into it.

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks for taking the time for this thread. You can tell you put some thought into it.

Yeah I wanted to make some different info available that I wish I could have read when trying to figure out this stuff (with the big help of DGR and DGCR)...there's so many different ways that things are described but everyone has a different key word or phrase click for them.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah from reading DGR it made it seem like the "snap" was a magic thing where you either had none, a lot, or all of it. That's not how I feel anymore at all...I feel like you have it or you don't yet (the 350' fairway driver mark, with holding the disc late), and after that it's proper athletic mechanics to generate arm speed.

I somewhat agree, there's varying degrees of things.

They talked about things like "sideways pull" and all this other stuff...when it's not about pulling in a different direction...I think it's about getting a set axis (brace) so that you can pull all the way around instead of tipping over forwards (and losing a point to rotate around). Just a different way to think about it that applies to many sports motions rather than describe weird angles around a round object.

It is about changing the direction of the head of the disc. Being on a braced axis majorly helps being able to do that. Tipping through the hit, makes it so there's nothing or little to hit/leverage against.

It's definitely possible to break through those walls, and it takes less effort to throw 425' properly than to strong arm 300'.

Most definitely. I remember throwing out my neck/trap just trying to throw a Boss as hard as I could and it maybe going 250'.

 

[slowplastic]

It is about changing the direction of the head of the disc. Being on a braced axis majorly helps being able to do that. Tipping through the hit, makes it so there's nothing or little to hit/leverage against.

Yeah it feels like you're getting more snap out of it but it's because you have something to leverage against during the hit point. It just helped me figure out that it's due to athletic body positions being necessary, rather than some magic wrist snap...the snap happens because the other things are correct. Your way of analyzing form really helped me start to get key elements.

It really works. With this better weight shift I wasn't throwing "perfect" for my current form today and was still hitting 410' with Destroyers, then on a properly timed and braced throw with a River it went ~390'. It's pretty amazing to have the leeway to do things a little wrong and still throw over 400'.

 

[drscholl14]

Thanks for the great read and ideas on this topic. I seem to be stuck at the 350-400 plateau. I will be giving these a try.

 

[banzai7]

It is useful to be able to see the whole picture in sequence. It seems like you can break through one plateau by creating habits that make it harder to break through later stages.

For example, back when I was struggling with nose angle issues years ago, I was told to "get your weight forward" and that my "chest should be over the knee" during the follow through. This led me to not brace properly and I thought that tipping over and spiraling of the tee pad was good form. Now I'm struggling to undo that, but it is deeply ingrained now.

Maybe this post will help some people avoid this two-steps-forward-one-step-back type progression.

 

[slowplastic]

Now I'm struggling to undo that, but it is deeply ingrained now.

Don't undo it...go to the field with the idea of trying something completely different.

Each plateau is a different throw and feeling. Know what feel and body positions you want to emulate and go through those positions in a smooth way. It doesn't matter where the disc goes the first few tries...find the right balance. Just don't try to throw your normal way while "trying" to be better balanced or doing something else slightly different.

This is a very important point for anyone trying to get to the next step, whatever it is. Each plateau is a distinct change in form (whatever your current plateaus are, the ones I had are not completely universal to everyone). Any minor adjustment will cap out distance until you go to the field and try to find a different feeling throw.

The good thing is that after going through this rebuilding process, once you know how the throw feels (and why it feels that way) it becomes easy to reproduce the new form. For example, it's easier for a good skateboarder to learn to do a switch kickflip, than for a beginner to learn a kickflip in their natural stance.

 

[LeftyHukin]

Thank you for the post!

I have been playing just over a year and I am in the middle of the 300 barrier and snap barrier. I can throw my US G*Daedalus 310 consistently and 330 max. My fairway drivers are about 280-290 with US and 260-270 OS with mids anywhere between 250-270. Since the main course where I play league this year the longest flat hole is 310ft, I have had little incentive to develop a longer game, however I have become fairly accurate. Over the past 2 months I have been venturing out and playing the longer/technical courses and have had the thought that I need to work on my form so I am not settling for pars on 300ft+ holes and relying on short technical holes for birdies.

As the summer is going on I am starting to hear a "snap" on most of my shots I put power into and can tell the difference as the flight is normally lower and has more velocity at the start. I get this feeling on about 80% of my shots now. I recently have been trying to fix my footwork as when I do an X-Step my pivot foot was flat and pointing to the side, rather than on the toes and slightly pointing back. Since working on it my drives have not gone much further, but I am noticing I am requiring a lot less effort to reach the same distance, which leads me to believe that I am also strong arming the hell out of my shots and not staying fluid.

League is over this week and to fulfill my yearly goal I am going to jump from the INT division to ADV. Started the year playing Rec shooting +12 and the last 4 weeks my worst has been -4 and best -7, which cashes in Adv so might as well move up and learn something new . I think the rest of the year will just be working on the mechanics and keep ingraining them as the winter moves in. By the end of next year I hope to be throwing 375ft-400ft

 

[slowplastic]

As the summer is going on I am starting to hear a "snap" on most of my shots I put power into and can tell the difference as the flight is normally lower and has more velocity at the start. I get this feeling on about 80% of my shots now. I recently have been trying to fix my footwork as when I do an X-Step my pivot foot was flat and pointing to the side, rather than on the toes and slightly pointing back. Since working on it my drives have not gone much further, but I am noticing I am requiring a lot less effort to reach the same distance, which leads me to believe that I am also strong arming the hell out of my shots and not staying fluid.

That sounds like a huge improvement in consistency over the year, so that's awesome.

As far as audible snap goes, it means nothing to be honest. That's the disc popping out of your closed fingers, and them smacking each other. I'd say 95% of my drives don't make a sound, occasionally they will, and it usually means nothing for how far it will go. Some people make the sound on 100% of their hard shots.

Snap is a weird term because different people think it's different things...it basically means you are throwing really hard to most people. To me it means that there is wrist involvement (you don't try to do it...it happens because of arm positions). Your wrist going from the outside edge of the disc at the right pec area, to then pulling the disc around at the hit point (and holding onto the disc this whole way) gives the disc way more spin and speed, and this is what I call snap. Throwing without snap is the equivalent to throwing forehand with a wrist brace on...it's going to feel very very handicapped. That's why I think it's so important to get to that ~350' mark, it makes discs fly way straighter and with lower effort....plus they fly more like the flight charts say.

I guarantee when you figure out how to do that, you'll throw further and with less effort from a stand still than you currently do with an X step.

 

[FriedInTheDesert]

Good stuff slowplastic. Right on the money, I was stuck at 300 for over a year. I was strong arming it.

I was working on my routine and ended up trying to copy Feldberg. Well when you do the Feldberg hop and bring your arm back the way he does it really makes everything so simple. It also allowed me to feel a powerful coil. Now it feels like I'm trying to chuck a 5 pound kettle bell down the fairway. That pulling like you're starting a lawn mower thought really held me back. I wish I could tell all the noobs. I'm not pulling through my chest anymore. I'm pulling through my belt line.

Love this game.