Disc Golf Rule Nazi Stories

[JC17393]

So the pdga is more worried people getting next to a car, next to a bug/animal(that will move), or people getting their feet wet in casual water than falling into a river or getting a rash that sometimes involves dr visits?

I really think a rivers edge is sometimes the most dangerous part of a course. That needs to be looked at.

They can't write rules to legislate river's edges. That's for the TD or course designer to account for. If it is truly dangerous, then the TD or course designer should be the one to address it. The rules of play are written with the assumption that the course being played has been vetted for safety concerns before it is used.

Plants don't cause rashes in everyone. A lot of people couldn't identify poison ivy if they wanted to, even when they are susceptible to allergic reactions. Everyone can identify a car without question...or an insect/animal...or water. Allowing relief from plants would require all players to be able to readily identify it otherwise what's stopping a player from saying any random plant is dangerous just to be able to take enough relief to get a better angle around an obstacle?

The rules do account for any individual player being able to avoid situations that they find dangerous. If for any reason a player wants to avoid a particular position, they have the choice to re-throw from the previous lie with a penalty or to take line of play relief with a penalty. Players can elect to do that at any time on any lie.

 

[WhiteyBear]

Ok, but you listed riverbanks and poison ivy, you can't generalize to things like that just because the rule is about safety.



It has to be announced by the TD, and it would apply to everyone. The optional relief rule is there if not. Part of the reason why it's not included as a blanket statement is that it's really easy to call anything remotely resembling the plant poison ivy if your card mates aren't confident in identifying it. It's much better if TDs specifically mark and announce particular patches rather than just giving relief from all ivy.

Fair enough, and you are right about the poison ivy part, it has to be stated by the TD.

My point about riverbanks comes from experience. We have very steep edges, with loose dirt that you cannot possible stand up straight on. But guess what, discs get stuck there. You cannot play it where it lies, you have to take casual relief. You could argue "rule of verticality", but you would literally be sticking your foot in the air.

But, you are right, the TD has to make all these things abundantly clear, and in the case of "unknown", throw a provisional and talk it out afterwards.

 

[dx_roc]

yea...was just gonna ask why parking lot isnt ob...or rather why is parking lot ib.

iirc, her shot was really bad (due to the wind) and ended up in a spot no one had thought possible.

 

[JC17393]

Fair enough, and you are right about the poison ivy part, it has to be stated by the TD.

My point about riverbanks comes from experience. We have very steep edges, with loose dirt that you cannot possible stand up straight on. But guess what, discs get stuck there. You cannot play it where it lies, you have to take casual relief. You could argue "rule of verticality", but you would literally be sticking your foot in the air.

But, you are right, the TD has to make all these things abundantly clear, and in the case of "unknown", throw a provisional and talk it out afterwards.

Are the rivers OB? I presume they are. Why not just make the OB line the top of the bank so any disc on the bank between the water's edge and the top of the bank are OB and you play it accordingly?

It takes a bit more effort and perhaps expense to mark the lines that way, but in the name of safety, it has to be worth it, no?

 

[Tfire25]

No, the PDGA has decided that TDs have a much better idea of what's dangerous on their individual courses than a rule book that isn't specifically applicable to local situations. They've codified the things that are black and white and left the gray areas to TD discretion. Also, if those kinds of dangerous situations are present on a course and you're that uncomfortable with them, I would recommend playing somewhere else.

I was just curious. The middle concho in San Angelo was the course I was referring to. Deadly river bank, about a 15 foot drop into the water with sticks protruding.

Nothing was ever said about relief and no ob lines were marked. My disc landed on a little shelf halfway down the mini cliff from the water. What would you do there? Retee?

 

[JC17393]

I was just curious. The middle concho in San Angelo was the course I was referring to. Deadly river bank, about a 15 foot drop into the water with sticks protruding.

Nothing was ever said about relief and no ob lines were marked. My disc landed on a little shelf halfway down the mini cliff from the water. What would you do there? Retee?

Retee or take line of play relief with penalty.

803.02 Optional Relief and Optional Re-throw
A. Optional Relief. A player may elect at any time to take optional relief. The lie may then be relocated to a new lie which is no closer to the target, and is on the line of play. One penalty throw shall be added to the player's score.
B. Optional Re-throw. A player may elect at any time to re-throw from the previous lie. The original throw plus one penalty throw shall be counted in the player's score.

 

[mashnut]

I was just curious. The middle concho in San Angelo was the course I was referring to. Deadly river bank, about a 15 foot drop into the water with sticks protruding.

Nothing was ever said about relief and no ob lines were marked. My disc landed on a little shelf halfway down the mini cliff from the water. What would you do there? Retee?

I would make the decision on whether or not I felt it was safe to try to throw from where the disc was, if not I'd take optional relief. I would also (politely) express to the TD after the round that I think areas like that should be marked as either OB or casual relief. In a casual round I'd just take the casual relief and not worry about it.

 

[Tfire25]

Thanks guys! The crush on the concho is a fun event but that middle concho is a beating. One of the local pros threw a +11 on one hole. Hole 11 actually. I think he got mad and re-teed 4 times.

 

[beereakfast]

All hail the Troll Killer.

Thank you for the bump. I gave up on that thread a couple of days ago. That was a great lunch hour read!

 

[Discette]

Jeff never really hid the fact that he had played Wintertime Open and that he used to be a certified official. In the OP, he states he was returning to the Wintertime Open after a break and that he had been playing for 7 years. Also in this thread, HH tells everyone that he used to be a Certified Official. This kind of bolsters his case that he was not aware he was doing anything wrong.

...I used to be a certified rules official, I never said that during the tournament because I just felt it would have escalated the situation....

Anybody on DGCR could have noticed that a player with a new 60K PDGA number could not be a former PDGA Certified Official. Anyone else could have looked up the past Wintertime Open results and seen that the only Jeff Harris that played before had a different number.


Again, I didn't start out to bust Jeff. We were having a rules debate and I just wondered why a former TD would be so freaking unreasonable.


I hope everything works out for him as a player and a person. Jeff is not some anonymous person to me. We played three rounds on the top card together at WO. I thought he was genuinely a nice guy and a good sport. His internet personality is completely different and very confrontational. Hopefully I slayed that internet troll for good. However, I do wish the nice and polite Jeff that I met in person all the best in his real life.

 

[Harrishabitat]

Jeff never really hid the fact that he had played Wintertime Open and that he used to be a certified official. In the OP, he states he was returning to the Wintertime Open after a break and that he had been playing for 7 years. Also in this thread, HH tells everyone that he used to be a Certified Official. This kind of bolsters his case that he was not aware he was doing anything wrong.

Anybody on DGCR could have noticed that a player with a new 60K PDGA number could not be a former PDGA Certified Official. Anyone else could have looked up the past Wintertime Open results and seen that the only Jeff Harris that played before had a different number.

Again, I didn't start out to bust Jeff. We were having a rules debate and I just wondered why a former TD would be so freaking unreasonable.

I hope everything works out for him as a player and a person. Jeff is not some anonymous person to me. We played three rounds on the top card together at WO. I thought he was genuinely a nice guy and a good sport. His internet personality is completely different and very confrontational. Hopefully I slayed that internet troll for good. However, I do wish the nice and polite Jeff that I met in person all the best in his real life.

I think this whole thing is a lesson on interactions on the internet are with real people and you shouldn't let your emotions get the best of you. I get very passionate about somethings and in this situation I didn't filter that passion (plus I was having a rough week, but that isn't any excuse). I do believe the rules should be followed as they are written, but there are times that a TD does have to make judgement calls. That isn't the fault of the TD, but probably more of a fault with a rule, that is a discussion that you can all have.

I want to once again profusely apologize for letting my passion get the best of me and questioning peoples integrity (yes glass houses) and obviously now I am in a position of not intentionally doing something wrong but still breaking a rule nonetheless.

Those that know me, know that I am an honest person and that I would never do anything like this intentionally. If you look at everything from a non-biased perspective you will probably come to the same conclusion. I am going to take some much heeded advice and take a hiatus from internet discussions. Also, for those that care, I have been in contact with various people with the PDGA including the executive director and working on rectifying the situation.

 

[ru4por]

See, all of this is why disc golf will never be like ball golf.

 

[The Hammer]

See, all of this is why disc golf will never be like ball golf.

Because disc golf has no balls?

 

[Tfire25]

Because disc golf has no balls?

Exactly. And lol.

 

[threej21]

Wait, so you had to know you had two pdga numbers, are you saying you didn't know that it was against the rules??

I didn't see the thread, or where in this thread, all that hoopla came out about the two pdga #s. But don't understand how having two numbers could be an 'honest' mistake...

 

[The Hammer]

Wait, so you had to know you had two pdga numbers, are you saying you didn't know that it was against the rules??

I didn't see the thread, or where in this thread, all that hoopla came out about the two pdga #s. But don't understand how having two numbers could be an 'honest' mistake...

Sounds like you need to do some reading then.

 

[ScottyLove]

Sounds like you need to do some reading then.

All of that was in the other thread which is now closed...

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104099

 

[WhiteyBear]

If disc golf were like golf, you'd have two interesting things;

#1 DG on TV (for better or worse)
#2 The ability for ANYONE watching DG on TV to call into the tournament office and call a fault/foul/rules violation.

So all you people who "never foot fault".....good luck with that.

 

[JC17393]

If disc golf were like golf, you'd have two interesting things;

#1 DG on TV (for better or worse)
#2 The ability for ANYONE watching DG on TV to call into the tournament office and call a fault/foul/rules violation.

So all you people who "never foot fault".....good luck with that.

For #2 to happen, there'd also need to be a change in current disc golf rules.

808. Rules Q & A

QA 36: Is Video Evidence Allowed for Rulings?
Q: A spectator managed to capture video evidence of some stance violations and courtesy violations like one player swearing and another drinking during the round. Can any of those video clips or snapshots be reviewed by an official to subsequently issue warnings or penalties?
A: No. At this point, media evidence such as video, photos or audio clips cannot be used by officials or TDs for making rulings. Only direct visual accounts of possible rules infractions observed by players, spectators or officials may be used by TDs to make rulings.

 

[WhiteyBear]

For #2 to happen, there'd also need to be a change in current disc golf rules.

808. Rules Q & A

Media is speaking to recorded events. Live TV is "live" spectator-ship

Don't worry, that rule should be going away soon anyways, have a feeling.