Do we need to fix/change disc golf baskets

[Lithicon]

I understand what most mean by a well executed putt going in. This is what I think of when I say Well executed, and well placed putt. Both are key, if it's executed well, doesn't mean it's on target. I'm not a big fan of making everyone feel like they are amazing at everything, which is a big fad these days. People just have to realize they aren't good at certain things. Someone has to lose. If it by someone not being good, or that they didn't win by just sheer luck.

This http://www.questat.com/images/graphics/basketbase.jpg
Made of metal.

Now looking back, this basket serves more than just to eliminate most of the issues we're all having in a way. Kind of like when I said a mach III basket with maybe another set of inner chains could solve it. But, even then the possibility is still there, albeit slightly less. With the target in the link If you hit meat, it's probably going to stay. But, if you're off target to the left, you normaly don't have as much of a chance of it staying in as if you were off slightly to the right. BUT, that's something that is fundamentally going to happen, because of physics. Not something that I think should be changed in the target, that's something you should improve in your game. If you hit high, it might not stay, due to not penetrating enough. Something that I also think should be improved in your game. Both are parts of your aiming.

You mentioned that hanging chain baskets - " more shots to the left or right would be deflected out of the basket". I think this is where I have the biggest issue. I don't think the goal is to make every putt stay in the basket. If that is really the goal then we should have flypaper for chains. Maybe chains are fine and looking at a radical overhaul is fine.

The bottom line is that it is fine to look at other options but at least recognize that what we are using now isn't half bad. The vast majority of putts that don't stay in the basket have very good reasons for falling out.

I agree here. Well placed and well executed putts shouldn't really shoot through period, even in current baskets. I'm not saying well executed but off target putts shouldn't stay in, but you take that chance of missing if you fall prey to anything that pulls your aim off. I think this is what I've meant basically throughout this whole topic.

 

[JHern]

I think what you will find is that people like the chains, want the chains, respond to the chains, and will seek out the chains.

I know this very well, myself. I often bicycle to play a round, and there is a course just 3 miles away (an 18-hole object course, with some really great wooded holes, unique fairways, etc.) and another 7 miles away (a 9-hole, mostly open, pole hole course). Going to the object course is relatively easy, through back suburbia roads with little traffic. Going to the chains is a lot more effort, even beyond the more than 2X distance...going there and back through traffic and over bridges and everything else is truly grueling.

Guess where I go 99% of the time? I go to the chains, just like a mosquito to the zap lamp.

If you put two courses within a mile of each other, both with the same sort of design and level of challenge, and set up one with pole holes and the other with a cheap chain-less contraption, which one gets more play? I think the pole hole course will be packed and the other will have knee-high weeds from lack of use.

You're presenting a false choice here...I'm not even talking about replacing chain-based pole holes with a bunch of crap shabby objects scattered around a park. My whole motivation here is to get people to think about nice targets that they might like just as much as chains, but that are a lot cheaper/simpler.

What's a good analogy? Its like this new Google phone vs the iPhone. The iPhone is the chain-based pole hole, and the Google phone is some as-yet-to-be-thought-of new-fangled target that really kicks ass. The whole point is that the Google phone is much cheaper, and (gasp) much better!

Anyways, I still refuse to believe that mine, or anyone else's, experience with shabby object courses, junk tone poles, etc., is as good as a non-pole hole target gets. Now, let's just get the folks at Google working on it.

 

[Widdershins]

I have posted on this site (and others) complaints about the efficacy of baskets ( ie...do they catch good putts?) and concluded that baskets suck. They arbitrarily catch weak putts and reject apparently good putts. The weak putts are not important to me. Sure, some catch and others don't. It is true of all close calls in life: you win some you lose some. Whatever. If you ALMOST do something right then it may or may not work out. But if you do something really well then you should be rewarded for it. But baskets are maddening because they are so unpredictable.

This conclusion (baskets suck) was not easily reached but only following hundreds of hours of practice putting on various baskets, (except for the Spiderweb basket, which was a clear step above the others but also rarely seen outside of Indiana).

Now I am willing to back off my complaint based on my experience at the 2010 Pro Worlds at Lemon Lake, Indiana.

I went down, as usual, a week early to warm up and learn the courses. During that week I did putting practice every day, then more during the week of competition. Here is my conclusion: The Innova baskets with the double chains at Lemon Lake seldom allowed bounce outs or blow throughs. They are much better than than the average baskets on the market. They are much better than what I typically putt on at courses near my home, primarily DGA baskets.

I saw Dave Dunipace, (one the owners and chief designer for Innova) at Worlds and congratulated him on how well his baskets worked. It is only fair that I extend that publicly.

 

[Parks]

Would shrinking the horizontal target some help reduce the extreme distances that people can effectively putt from, and help keep "good" putts in at the same time?

It would increase chain density so it would reduce slipping through the chains as well as the chance of hitting the pole and bouncing back out. The catching basket itself would probably have to be reduced a little in diameter, as well.

 

[Star Shark]

Mark: It's been my experience that most courses with DGA baskets have Mach 3s, which aren't spectacular targets. The Mach 5/Chainstar target is a huge step better and is on par with the Innova DC Pros. We have one local course with mostly Mach 5 baskets (Chavez Ridge) and they catch quite well.

 

[Smigles1]

IMO it is not that much of a problem. A well executed putt is in relation to the basket.

On our practice field, we have some realy crappy baskets. Too light chains, sinlge rows of chains, even some with chains missing. You just gotta adapt the put to it. Throw loftier, less spin, softer. You can still make the disc go in. A good put is always adjusted to the target. Of course it is not nice if the disc skips out, but at least it is the same for all players. Most of the time when i think "this should have stayed in" i realise that the throw was not perfect, hitting too much to the side or hitting too strong etc. It is hardly ever that i think i could have done nothing better and the disc does not stay in.

Of course if we find a easy solution ( i kinda like the bell on a pole idea ) i would be for it, but i dont think that the baskets we have atm are unbearable. I still like playing on them

 

[jnecessary]

I agree with Mark that the Innova DC Pros are the best catching baskets on the market. Gateway Titan's are a close second but don't seem to be as refined. I see a lot of them that look a bit janky but the ones in good shape always catch great.

 

[some call me...tim?]

I agree with the gripes on basket design. As scoot_er has pointed out before, in any given round with a group of four, you can expect to see at least one good putt spit out. It's almost scary how consistently it happens. In casual rounds, it's easy enough to laugh off, but if there's money on the line, having such a degree of chance is unacceptable.

And yes, I also agree that Discatchers are the best catching baskets I've ever used. I asked in another thread that's apparently failed, but does anyone have experience with the Disc King baskets? http://www.discking1.com/Baskets.html I've been able to wrangle an opinion out of one person, but I'd like to hear more if anyone has input.

 

[jubuttib]

Meh, at least you don't have to suffer the agony that is the Amexpo line of targets...

 

[some call me...tim?]

Meh, at least you don't have to suffer the agony that is the Amexpo line of targets...

What are those like? Any pics?

 

[jubuttib]

Let's just say that if you take your putter and hold it in the middle of the target zone, then push it in until it touches the pole, and suddenly let go, there's about 50% chance it won't land in the basket.

That and the vertical wires on the basket terminate in the form of 2" loops on the rim of the basket. Fun times had by all.

 

[JHern]

I was playing one of my best rounds ever yesterday at Shady Oaks when several good putts of mine started spitting from the Mach 3 baskets. I hadn't felt so robbed in a long time, 2 of them went right through the chains flat, bounced off the pole, and spit back out the other side...did I mention the disc was flat the whole time through and that the disc touched all the chains on that side of the basket?

IMHO, a putt that hits the center pole and grabs every chain along the way SHOULD NEVER FALL/SPIT OUT!!!

On the other hand, I've been playing my local object course more often lately (sometimes doing random doubles there too), and enjoying it a lot. Very simple, 8-ish inch diameter wooden posts, painted orange at the target height and with metal strips nailed at the top and bottom of the target zone (hitting the metal counts, as does landing on top of the post). You know, none of us ever feel cheated by these targets, we know for damn sure if we hit it or not...I can't even recall when there was a question about it after many many rounds. The only exception is driving blind off the tee, when you hear your disc hit wood but not sure that it hit the target for an ace. But otherwise these are very fair. You hit it, its good. You miss it, its not good. Very simple. And they cost almost nothing.

This is why I suggested the bell-shaped poles, which would solve the problem of knowing for sure if your disc hit the target from a distance (unless you're deaf) because the pole would have a very distinctive ring tone to it. You could even make a different tone for different holes by changing the weight of the bell (while keeping its shape the same). Make it rust-proof, and it'll withstand almost anything nature or man can throw at it, unlike baskets which are easily wrecked and have many pieces (including every link of every chain) that can get out of whack.

Think about how many strips and pieces of metal are required to make a chain pole hole. Think about the very large number of welds that are needed to assemble it. It is really an inefficient and ineffective device in the long term, and has high labor costs. The only thing it does well is to keep your discs from getting beat up too badly...posts or bells would be harder on discs (most regulars at the object course use Crystal Z or Champ plastic putters).

The target is the very essential piece of equipment to make a disc golf course. I ask again, why do we choose the most expensive and most difficult to maintain design for our sport? Wouldn't it be easier to install more courses if the targets were simpler and cheaper?

Anyways, thanks for reviving this topic, Mark. Nice to hear about your experience with the Innova baskets, I too have found them to be good so long as you don't hit that high profile upper ring.

 

[JR]

I don't wanna hurt a new manufacturer so you make up your own mind about the comments of players at the European championships. That is not good for the sport. But the baskets are a work in progress from what I understand.

 

[jubuttib]

I don't wanna hurt a new manufacturer so you make up your own mind about the comments of players at the European championships. That is not good for the sport. But the baskets are a work in progress from what I understand.

What baskets are they using there?

 

[Cgkdisc]

What baskets are they using there?

I believe they are using the newly approved baskets pictured here:
http://www.pdga.com/tech-standards
No nubs on the baskets may bother the players?

 

[JR]

From what I've heard the lack of nubs is the least of the problems. Even the much lower than usual installation wasn't as much of a problem as spit outs with slowly flying flat discs hitting low in the center of the pole still spitting out multiple times for some players. Plural from a small sample of people telling of the behavior of the baskets. You decide. It's no wonder they need to add chains for higher rated events. Which begs the question why such a prestigious event as the European championships has to be XA? Never again I say. No large event should be experimental if it means lottery when putting with bad equipment is allowed. Good putts should always stay in and bad ones spit out. These days every basket is in between those demands with just luck playing a part. Instead of the performance of the thrower or the qualities of the disc.

I don't wanna name the company because they are really prototypes. No telling how good future versions that will probably be eligible for tournament play are gonna get so no need to associated them with the troubles many players have commented on. They may very well do right in the future so lets let them have the benefit of the doubt. In the name of fairness.

As an unrelated aside mafa just told that one of his acquaintances was just in France and suffered the same fate as the twice in a row Finnish champion Jesse Heinonen. Food poisoning. So much for the French cuisine. Nasty bacteria for her and even worse for Jesse. He wrote that he can't play and he was up there in the standings. Shit. Literally...

 

[Cgkdisc]

From a construction standpoint, the newly approved baskets meet the Championship basket standards other than some of the gaps in the side of the basket are a few millimeters bigger than the Championship spec. There are no "catchability" standards for targets or chain patterns since no one knows how to create a test to measure such a thing.

 

[cornelius]

on a slightly unrelated note, does anyone know if there is going to be video coverage of the european championships?

 

[JHern]

I don't wanna hurt a new manufacturer so you make up your own mind about the comments of players at the European championships. That is not good for the sport. But the baskets are a work in progress from what I understand.

Are these the same baskets as in that video where Nikko threw an ace and the chains hardly moved when the disc hit them?

 

[JHern]

From a construction standpoint, the newly approved baskets meet the Championship basket standards other than some of the gaps in the side of the basket are a few millimeters bigger than the Championship spec. There are no "catchability" standards for targets or chain patterns since no one knows how to create a test to measure such a thing.

I can think of some, if they would truly be interested in it.