Mr. America
* Ace Member *
But this is pretty mild as far as changes go, except for the colors. I don't see anything they have tweaked as fixing a "problem" with the bag.
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Dynamic Discs Ranger Backpack Review
- Thread starter WhiteyBear
- Start date
But this is pretty mild as far as changes go, except for the colors. I don't see anything they have tweaked as fixing a "problem" with the bag.
tbird888
Salient Disc Test Team
Business is about improvement. Should we all own the scroll wheel iPods? Should we all be driving Model Ts still? Should we all be wearing loincloths? What about crank telephones?
If you buy a product expecting that it won't ever change, then you need to walk out in the world and open your eyes.
I'm fully expecting an update to the Ergo I just bought to be coming down the pipe eventually. I hope some of the concerns I addressed in my video review are taken into consideration so the next gens are better than mine because I want Big Hyzer to grow.
throwfromthewoods
Double Eagle Member
the depth of the bag was a big issue for a lot of people, especially those who carry bigger diameter mids. I had mentioned in this thread maybe a month ago that it wouldn't kill DD to just add about a half inch of inner depth. Also the straps are a bit on the thin side. When the bag is heavy, they can start to cut into the shoulder on long walks or longer days.
throwfromthewoods
Double Eagle Member
Sooner34
Birdie Member
So down...
OT:
Products will always be revised after launch. How would anything get better?
@iacas/tbird/mashnut: Do you know what a straw man is? You guys can't use sweeping examples of "how business works" and expect your points to be made like you're experts and we should just take you for your word or something. Well, you can, it's just stupid. I stated my opinion on the Ranger situation, you respond with bravado and weird exaggerations... Don't improve a product so people who bought it don't feel left behind? Comparing Apple, car manufacturers, all retail businesses, and even the effin MODEL T?! Give me a break!
Like I said, if I had purchased the first run Ranger, I would be pissed. I didn't because I recognized a superior product and guarantee elsewhere. When I saw the first run Ranger in person for the first time I was so thankful I didn't get it. I REALLY think the second run Ranger is worth taking a look at, though. I'll be excited to see one in person.
Like I said, if I had purchased the first run Ranger, I would be pissed. I didn't because I recognized a superior product and guarantee elsewhere. When I saw the first run Ranger in person for the first time I was so thankful I didn't get it. I REALLY think the second run Ranger is worth taking a look at, though. I'll be excited to see one in person.
throwfromthewoods
Double Eagle Member
A straw man fallacy involves a distorted viewpoint being used to make an argument. There's a difference between distorting the viewpoint and offering examples. You asked if it ever happened with backpacks. I gave you three examples where it had specifically for disc golf. Afterwards, I broadened the spectrum to other retail ventures to illustrate the scope of the counterpoint to your complaint.
Considering every other person who has chimed in has had the opposite viewpoint, perhaps the distortion lies in your side of the argument. You would have every personal right to be pissed. It's your opinion. No one can argue against that. But to be surprised at the situation unfolding seems to be ignorance of how the retail system works; both in disc golf and the rest of the retail world.
Considering every other person who has chimed in has had the opposite viewpoint, perhaps the distortion lies in your side of the argument. You would have every personal right to be pissed. It's your opinion. No one can argue against that. But to be surprised at the situation unfolding seems to be ignorance of how the retail system works; both in disc golf and the rest of the retail world.
tbird888
Salient Disc Test Team
Pointing out that ALL products evolve with each new generation is an extremely valid point. How many examples do you need before you realize how idiotic is sounds to say that a company interested in making money shouldn't update their product to continue to refine it? Even if you release a product and think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, there will always be room for improvement. If you don't make them, someone else will.
I'd be interested to hear an explanation of how the business of making disc golf bags is different from other businesses that produce goods and sell them in a free market. You're saying that all these comparisons are stupid, but those of us making them are clearly not seeing the obvious differences you're seeing.
In every other industry, it's understood that you take some risk being an early adopter. Buying the first model off the production line means you get it before most other people but it also means that you accept that later versions might be better. My gregory daypack that I bought for hiking is great. The newer run of it has some cool improvements that I'd love, but I got to use that bag for a couple years rather than waiting for those improvements and I'm fine with the tradeoff. If you think that's a straw man argument too, I'd like to see some real explanation rather than insults and caps lock typing...
techn9cian4life
Double Eagle Member
I just ordered the Fracture Red.... soo yes, I will be putting my Ranger on the MP when I get my new one Lol Would I of never gotten the "first run" Ranger a month ago if I had known that this was going to happen? Probably not. Should DD of maybe said something to the public about them improving on the 3 things most Ranger owners had complaints about? Probably. Can we do any thing about it now? Definitely not. So, oh well.
tbird888
Salient Disc Test Team
:clap::clap::clap::clap:
When mash retorts like this, that means it's time to step back and reconsider your argument.
Yup. Doesn't apply here.
You can't really provide a comparison that makes more sense, because those are all examples of a design being iterated and improved upon while not doing anything for people who CHOSE to buy the earlier (or first) version.
That's not a straw man argument. It's just a series of good examples.
Feel free to call other people names some more.
jrawk
* Ace Member *
yeah, that really is the part that will anger people: no mention of the modifications being made in advance. And from whatever angle you look at it, businesses that continue to practice that policy rarely ever succeed. Seriously, name one? I can't.
Consider this: at 6:29pm you ordered a double captain and coke at the bar and pay $7. Your buddy behind you orders the same is charged $3.50 and got free french fries. There were no other indicators when happy hour started. Did the bartender need to tell you happy hour was about to start? No. Should the bartender have told you? Yes -- that is just good customer service.
tbird888
Salient Disc Test Team
Absolutely the bartender should've told you. The difference should end up in the tip jar.
throwfromthewoods
Double Eagle Member
Apple. They announce a new iPhone roughly 3-6 months after the latest one came out. And people still line up around the corner to get one.
It was a first run. Everyone who bought one knew it was the first run. Almost every backpack out there now isn't the first run design anymore. The Ergo is currently undergoing some changes too, from what I hear. I don't know why anyone is surprised or upset here.
You know who didn't change anything? Revolution. Tell me where they are now.
Using your analogy, there's always a line. Should someone who ordered a drink an hour earlier get the free fries? How about the guy who ordered a drink yesterday? There is a line. It's finite. Doesn't matter if you miss the sale or new release by a week or an hour. That's business. You may call it poor customer service, but that's from a customer perspective.
The only thing I would've liked to see from DD is maybe a discount from first-run buyers who want a new one. Especially on a lifetime warranty product, you'll make more money selling these at 10% or 15% off to repeat customers than making them pay full price and having some people intentionally beat up their first run until they can warranty a new bag for free
jrawk
* Ace Member *
No, Apple announces the changes well ahead of the actual release. That way those that are considering the product version available at the time can decide if they want to wait or not.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but the DD Ranger 2.0 changes hit store shelves and retail websites without any heads-up. Maybe i missed it. Seriously, if DD would have released this information before i purchased my Grip A-series, i would have waited to buy anything until i could have made a better informed purchase. DD lost my business because they withheld information on improving their product. That is not smart.
Just say'n.
The only thing I see a little differently after rereading is that I realize your rhetorical questions and exaggerated statements weren't literal (though, if serious could be perceived as straw man arguments, that's where I got "stupid" from). And then I called them stupid. Sorry about that. I don't think any of you are stupid. I never said you guys are wrong about your ideas, I said your arguments were stupid, but they were at first glance!
Mash, I'm not saying DG business is different as the rest of the business world, I'm saying it's the same. And all those industries (tech, automobiles, etc.) have recalls, updates, trade in programs, discounts, and guarantees. Though, timing of product development and releasing an improved model is my main disagreement. Regarding risk, I don't think there's any way to know how much risk DD knew they'd be putting on their first customers. The Ranger I saw barely functioned because it was so tight. Did they know that before they sold them? My guess is yes, but maybe not.
Overall, there's no real argument here. It's just me disagreeing with what I perceive as errors Dynamic Discs committed when releasing and updating the Ranger. You guys may have gotten the wrong idea (really, I didn't say they shouldn't refine or improve their products, I promise). Whether you guys like it or not, it's just an opinion. If you wanna continue to argue, feel free, but just because you all share one opinion doesn't mean that mine is wrong.
Mash, I'm not saying DG business is different as the rest of the business world, I'm saying it's the same. And all those industries (tech, automobiles, etc.) have recalls, updates, trade in programs, discounts, and guarantees. Though, timing of product development and releasing an improved model is my main disagreement. Regarding risk, I don't think there's any way to know how much risk DD knew they'd be putting on their first customers. The Ranger I saw barely functioned because it was so tight. Did they know that before they sold them? My guess is yes, but maybe not.
Overall, there's no real argument here. It's just me disagreeing with what I perceive as errors Dynamic Discs committed when releasing and updating the Ranger. You guys may have gotten the wrong idea (really, I didn't say they shouldn't refine or improve their products, I promise). Whether you guys like it or not, it's just an opinion. If you wanna continue to argue, feel free, but just because you all share one opinion doesn't mean that mine is wrong.
No, they don't. They announce things with very little lead time. Free stuff, like iOS 7, they can announce earlier.
Pre-announcing is a double-edged sword. If you still want to sell the remaining stock, you can't pre-announce by much.
You can look up the Osborne effect.
They do? So I can get a new Touareg or CR-V if I just bring my old one in because they've made improvements?
No. I can SELL my car to someone who wants it, and I can BUY a new car.
Apple doesn't take back iPhones or iPads or iPods or computers (unless they're defective and then they're replaced or refunded within the warranty window). Car dealers don't take back cars unless they want to buy your car so they can re-sell it for a profit.
Opinions can't be right or wrong. Facts can be. You seem to be basing your opinion on some incorrect facts about the way businesses tend to work.
When Microsoft or Sony releases their new console and it has some minor hardward issues (that don't negatively affect performance) that they fix with a later version of their system would you guys expect them to give you a free playstation or xbox?
Did you guys expect them to give you a free playstation or xbox when they increased the included hard drive or made them smaller and less prone to overheating?
Why would you expect a "small" disc golf company to do what you don't expect huge multi-billion dollar corporations to do? Like iacas, mashnutt, and tbird888 have said: If you buy a product early, you risk missing out on product improvements. You want the product improvements? Fine, sell your version to someone and buy a new one. Simple as that.
Did you guys expect them to give you a free playstation or xbox when they increased the included hard drive or made them smaller and less prone to overheating?
Why would you expect a "small" disc golf company to do what you don't expect huge multi-billion dollar corporations to do? Like iacas, mashnutt, and tbird888 have said: If you buy a product early, you risk missing out on product improvements. You want the product improvements? Fine, sell your version to someone and buy a new one. Simple as that.
MrGlass01
* Ace Member *
Man anyone who is an "early adopter" should know better. That is why that term exists. Anyone with a first generation anything is taking a risk. My sister bought a mazda 3 when they first came out. terrible transmission. they replaced hers 5 times. and it never worked properly.
they have the right to upgrade. this was not a disc golf backpack to begin with. It is repurposed for disc golf, the repurposing may take a little time. If you want a bag WAIT til the second or third run of the bag.
At this point the only company id trust would be grip. they have already learned this lesson the hard way and with the a series release they did it right.
they have the right to upgrade. this was not a disc golf backpack to begin with. It is repurposed for disc golf, the repurposing may take a little time. If you want a bag WAIT til the second or third run of the bag.
At this point the only company id trust would be grip. they have already learned this lesson the hard way and with the a series release they did it right.
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