Green Mountain Championships

[DavidSauls]

i really thought mcbeth would set a course record at fox run, anyway, did anybody notice on hole 5, gregs OB disc seemed to be picked up before his mini position was established. i thought there were penalties involved with that. at 1hr mark during live feed, anybody know for sure?

Not sure what you mean, not interested enough to watch for it, but there's no relation between picking up an OB disc, and marking the lie. The position of the disc at rest in OB doesn't determine where the lie will be---just where its flight last crossed the line.

The closest thing I can think of, if it's still in the rules---not interested enough to look---is the rule that applies to moving a disc before its OB status is determined, where it's close enough to be in doubt. If the thrower moves it prematurely, it's considered OB.

 

[alfonseski]

Not the open grass OB but the OB lining the woods lines that's unneeded in several areas unless it's so nasty in those areas that it's unplayable anyway. Can't easily tell from the video.

There is some rugged terrain out there. Some of the wooded lines where there is OB have 100+ foot cliffs, its shocking when you walk up on it.

 

[Cgkdisc]

There is some rugged terrain out there. Some of the wooded lines where there is OB have 100+ foot cliffs, its shocking when you walk up on it.

I can imagine. It's just more interesting design when there are areas that are challenging to play from and players can realistically take a tricky, not dangerous stance versus marking it OB. Makes for a more interesting game for spectators and viewers plus still spreads the scores based on recovery skills like ball golf versus simply penalty after penalty.

 

[joecoin]

So here's MJ's card tomorrow.

Michael Johansen
Paul McBeth
Cameron Todd
Dana Vicich

I think he advances.

 

[funguy]

There is some rugged terrain out there. Some of the wooded lines where there is OB have 100+ foot cliffs, its shocking when you walk up on it.

I am not sure where you are getting your information from. Have you ever been to Brewster Ridge. Please tell me where there are 100+ foot cliffs? There are a couple of holes where there are drop offs but not cliffs. In fact there are no rock faces anywhere on the course. The closest are up the road at Smuggler Notch but no where on the course itself. Yes there are woods, but for the most part it is a pretty easy course to walk with slight elevation changes but nothing ultra drastic.

 

[alfonseski]

yes I have been there, I was just there for the GMC. I was also at GMC last year and BRO this year and last year. The question was not about the woods at brewster. They were talking about lots of the painted OB on woods lines on Fox run. In the basin holes down by holes 10 and 11 the woods line does have a 100+ foot cliff. Also on 7 by the green it drops of abruptly as well. I played ams and caddied for my buddy this morning before hitting the road.

 

[robdeforge]

Not the open grass OB but the OB lining the woods lines that's unneeded in several areas unless it's so nasty in those areas that it's unplayable anyway. Can't easily tell from the video.

Can you remember which holes specifically you're referring to? I've played Fox Run enough times to know where most of the bad spots are

 

[JTacoma03]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with both of these statements.

Oh joy, a large event that couldn't be bothered to run string or paint on an OB line.

Stakes like that are fine for day to day use since paint wears off and string can be damaged too easily, but for a single weekend, make a definitive line.

(for reference, lead card, hole 5, round 2)

IMO white stakes are aesthetically so much nicer, and do just as good of a job. It's a great visual cue from the tee.

I can't even count how many times I've seen people pull strings taut, or press them down, etc. in order to examine the line, they end up getting stretched, distorted - or doing so to the next "section" between the following stakes.

There were lie questions, no doubt, but it was average compared to what I've seen anywhere else.

Lots of unnecessary OB on this course. We lose the chance to see these top players execute recovery saves from tough lies. The penalty just pads the score on a shot that's already in a tough lie. Reminds me of Chili in 1999 Worlds where the whole outside bushy boundary of the farm was strung as OB. No chance to test your skills and save a shot with with a good recovery.

I could not disagree with you more. Fox Run Meadows was fantastic, one of the best courses I've ever seen on tour. The OB was fair and tactically sculpted for these players. There were great, nuanced design elements executed on that course that trapped the players into over-aggressive play.

IMO, you're not adequately accounting for the wind patterns in the region, nor the visual illusions from the perspective of the tee.

The best advice I've ever read in regards to either designing or strategically analyzing a course is to walk it backwards. A good designer is like a magician in a certain sense, you have to deconstruct the hole from the pin/basket to the tee in order for the challenge to reveal itself.

We have so many bad courses in the US because it's either too obvious, or too random. Deceptive challenges are more fun to play, and now necessary for people at the top ranks of the game.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I could not disagree with you more. Fox Run Meadows was fantastic, one of the best courses I've ever seen on tour. The OB was fair and tactically sculpted for these players. There were great, nuanced design elements executed on that course that trapped the players into over-aggressive play.

IMO, you're not adequately accounting for the wind patterns in the region, nor the visual illusions from the perspective of the tee.

The best advice I've ever read in regards to either designing or strategically analyzing a course is to walk it backwards. A good designer is like a magician in a certain sense, you have to deconstruct the hole from the pin/basket to the tee in order for the challenge to reveal itself.

We have so many bad courses in the US because it's either too obvious, or too random. Deceptive challenges are more fun to play, and now necessary for people at the top ranks of the game.

Placing OB penalties in the field of play versus actual out-of-bounds at the property boundaries is weaker design and not in the core set of challenges in the traditional game of golf let alone placing them in blind areas of the holes. Trees and rough with 3 feet and higher foliage are our version of sand traps and rough in ball golf. To not use woods lines and rough that way when available (no cliffs, of course) detracts from the game of golf that challenges players to recover versus directly penalizes them. We don't get to see the recovery skills of the players which are typically the most viewed highlights. Even the promo pics for the DGPT and DGWT each show a guy putting from his knee because it's visually more interesting.

It's too bad we're seeing this expansion of OB penalties skewing what's considered good design for top players. Ball golf dialed way back on penal design elements like this in the mid-1900s for good reason, it's not fun for players. Plus, challenge elements versus direct penalty elements also keeps competition closer for more drama.

 

[JC17393]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with both of these statements.

IMO white stakes are aesthetically so much nicer, and do just as good of a job. It's a great visual cue from the tee.

I can't even count how many times I've seen people pull strings taut, or press them down, etc. in order to examine the line, they end up getting stretched, distorted - or doing so to the next "section" between the following stakes.

There were lie questions, no doubt, but it was average compared to what I've seen anywhere else.

Just to be clear, I have no quibble with the stakes. Those are great. My issue is with having to visually determine the line between the stakes. Whatever the method of determining the physical line (paint or string), I advocate putting it on the ground, not in the air. The stakes serve as the visual aid from afar, but the line itself is tight to the ground where it can't be stretched or adjusted or distorted, and where the disc 99% of the time will be sitting for easy visual verification of its status.

I attached some pics to this post of how I do this on my course. They are permanently installed and for the most part they stay put. The biggest hazards to their survival is time (sun and weather help the rope break down) and occasionally the mower/trimmer, so I have to replace sections every 2-3 years. Obviously on a temp layout like Fox Run, paint can do the job just as easily with a lot less effort. I just think having players doing the Camilo Villegas crane pose trying to site the line between two stakes is a bit on the ridiculous side, and shouldn't be necessary.

 

[cjman]

Placing OB penalties in the field of play versus actual out-of-bounds at the property boundaries is weaker design and not in the core set of challenges in the traditional game of golf let alone placing them in blind areas of the holes. Trees and rough with 3 feet and higher foliage are our version of sand traps and rough in ball golf. To not use woods lines and rough that way when available (no cliffs, of course) detracts from the game of golf that challenges players to recover versus directly penalizes them. We don't get to see the recovery skills of the players which are typically the most viewed highlights. Even the promo pics for the DGPT and DGWT each show a guy putting from his knee because it's visually more interesting.

It's too bad we're seeing this expansion of OB penalties skewing what's considered good design for top players. Ball golf dialed way back on penal design elements like this in the mid-1900s for good reason, it's not fun for players. Plus, challenge elements versus direct penalty elements also keeps competition closer for more drama.

"Considered good design for top players"

Says who? You? When do you think you'll accept that DG won't always be the DG that you have helped to pioneer?

I believe many of us playing MPO in 2016 are happy to see things moving towards courses like Fox Run. The course was well received, and I look forward to playing it again in tournament play. The OB you describe brings much more luck into play. When I finish playing fox run, the score I turn in is the score I earned.

Fox run is the throwing course, Brewsters is the placement/upshot course. They compliment eachother very well.

 

[Cgkdisc]

"Considered good design for top players"

Says who? You? When do you think you'll accept that DG won't always be the DG that you have helped to pioneer?

I believe many of us playing MPO in 2016 are happy to see things moving towards courses like Fox Run. The course was well received, and I look forward to playing it again in tournament play. The OB you describe brings much more luck into play. When I finish playing fox run, the score I turn in is the score I earned.

Fox run is the throwing course, Brewsters is the placement/upshot course. They compliment each other very well.

Pro players want people to watch. Watching challenging throws is more interesting than taking a penalty and throwing from a better lie. It's also more "golf-like" to play from where your shot lands where possible, i.e., "play it where it lies fundamental concept in golf" versus regularly relocating the lie with penalty on purpose rather than by choice. Whether a player makes a recovery shot or not adds drama and also keeps scores closer. These are good things in course design, especially if you want more people interested to watch.

 

[cjman]

I truthfully do not think DG will ever be interesting to watch for anyone but those addicted. Even among those people, I'd guess 10% watch. It's boring, slow, hard to follow even with good coverage. I was at the event all week yet still had a hard time seeing what was happening yesterday in the coverage.

I'm a pro player and disagree that I want people watching.

 

[NOStheBOSS]

I truthfully do not think DG will ever be interesting to watch for anyone but those addicted. Even among those people, I'd guess 10% watch. It's boring, slow, hard to follow even with good coverage. I was at the event all week yet still had a hard time seeing what was happening yesterday in the coverage.

I'm a pro player and disagree that I want people watching.

The objective of a pro player is to make money playing disc golf, correct? and you have no money to be made without people who are interested in watching. If you like competing for a $1000 purse at a B tier I guess that's your choice

 

[Cgkdisc]

I truthfully do not think DG will ever be interesting to watch for anyone but those addicted. Even among those people, I'd guess 10% watch. It's boring, slow, hard to follow even with good coverage. I was at the event all week yet still had a hard time seeing what was happening yesterday in the coverage.

I'm a pro player and disagree that I want people watching.

If you don't generate paying spectators, pros are ultimately just wagering with each other and hoping for some additional promoter cash handouts rather than being paid as professionals for entertaining the paying spectators. That's the reality.

 

[sidewinder22]

I'm a pro player and disagree that I want people watching.

If you don't want people watching you play, then I don't think you qualify as a pro player.

 

[sidewinder22]

Placing OB penalties in the field of play versus actual out-of-bounds at the property boundaries is weaker design and not in the core set of challenges in the traditional game of golf let alone placing them in blind areas of the holes. Trees and rough with 3 feet and higher foliage are our version of sand traps and rough in ball golf. To not use woods lines and rough that way when available (no cliffs, of course) detracts from the game of golf that challenges players to recover versus directly penalizes them. We don't get to see the recovery skills of the players which are typically the most viewed highlights. Even the promo pics for the DGPT and DGWT each show a guy putting from his knee because it's visually more interesting.

It's too bad we're seeing this expansion of OB penalties skewing what's considered good design for top players. Ball golf dialed way back on penal design elements like this in the mid-1900s for good reason, it's not fun for players. Plus, challenge elements versus direct penalty elements also keeps competition closer for more drama.

:thmbup:

 

[DanJon]

If you don't want people watching you play, then I don't think you qualify as a pro player.

Our sport has a pretty loose definition of the term "Pro".

 

[cheese dog]

Im a pro, I have a pdga number and everything. Wait...

 

[1978]

If you don't generate paying spectators, pros are ultimately just wagering with each other and hoping for some additional promoter cash handouts rather than being paid as professionals for entertaining the paying spectators. That's the reality.

More like gambling with a stacked deck against way less skilled Am's guilted into playing pro because of a weak regional community or poor losers. In the end, its the 950 rated player that funds a lot of pro purses. Especially at the B and C tier level. Now with Trophy only even more money can be ciphened off to make the pro purse greater.

70 of the 122 players were rated under 970 at Green Mountain. Only 5 players over 970 finished outside of the cash. This is a problem until a majority of funding is from outside the players.