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How I Would Change the PDGA
- Thread starter shive
- Start date
Although I do not agree with all the details of Peters platform, he is the candidate that is focused on the base of the membership (amateurs) while working to aid the promoters of the sport (TDs) and keep the business matters of the membership organization in full view of the members.
Having been an active member and TD since 1977, I know we need Peter on the board to ask the questions for us to the other board members and the administration.
If you are an avid amateur player, or a TD, I recommend voting for one (slingshot vote): Peter Shive - to continue serving us on the board of the PDGA.
Having been an active member and TD since 1977, I know we need Peter on the board to ask the questions for us to the other board members and the administration.
If you are an avid amateur player, or a TD, I recommend voting for one (slingshot vote): Peter Shive - to continue serving us on the board of the PDGA.
I like this option, full $500 if 10 or more.
After reading Mr. Shive's commentary on our work at DGPtv, I felt compelled to respond to his disingenuous characterization of our proposal at the Fall Board Summit, as well as some other misinformed opinions.
While Mr. Shive seems to be obsessed with our Live Internet broadcasting "boondoogle," his argument is skillfully (and purposely, I would guess) crafted to present only one-side of our proposal that was presented at the PDGA Fall Board Summit. The fact remains that the PDGA is loosing 30-50% of our annual membership renewals (which is not surprising if one happens upon Mr. Shive's, a PDGA Board Member, comments here). Though the PDGA does benefit from a major influx of new members each year to off-set this loss, our proposal at the Fall Summit specifically laid out a plan to cut the attrition rate of our PDGA membership significantly enough to more than make up for the $70,000 we proposed for our media efforts. The hook would be that our media efforts would create a stronger connection between the PDGA and its members, as well as provide it some timely content that would further connect with members and non-members alike, therefore giving the PDGA our sport's leadership position that it deserves. This part of the story should be known, since Mr. Shive has opted to only describe the expense side of the PDGA ledger, again while purposely neglecting to describe the income side.
The truth is that DGPtv is an ardent supporter and ambassador for the association wherever we go! You should know how energized our disc golfers are when they see us onsite and know that the event they are playing in is going to be on DGPtv or TV! Most of the time they tell me, "Thanks PDGA for doing this!"
Clearly, contributors to this thread are entitled to your opinions, but it may be worthwhile to consider some of the FACTS of this media issue related to DGPtv:
FACT: DGPtv received approximately 1/3 of what we requested at the Fall Summit to support our media efforts this year, all while EXPANDING our coverage to 4 TV shows this year, in addition to our ambitious live Internet streaming schedule. The money we receive from the PDGA is barely enough to pay for ONE SHOW (the Memorial Internet & TV show alone costs $31,097 to produce), let alone constitute a "boondoogle." (Great word by-the-way, but totally misused here in this context.)
FACT: DGPtv has/is producing four 30-minute TV Shows that will put Disc Golf potentially in front of over 82 million households who can watch our top events on at least 21 regional sports networks around the nation (i.e. potential new/already registered PDGA members who watch the PDGA commercial and follow the NT schedule with our promotional spots-- http://youtu.be/Q0B8eVcYgfw). If the mission of the PDGA is to promote disc golf, then nothing else it has ever supported has had this kind of impact...NOTHING!
FACT: DGPtv has been watched live and online in no less than 133 nations around the world over the last four years. Viewers watch for an average of 27 minutes during each broadcast (sorry Mr. Shive...you quality of the broadcast argument doesn't jibe the quantity of these analytics!)
FACT: DGPtv is operated almost 100% by current/active PDGA members, who have been in the sport for quite a long time (this is my 26th year in the sport). These are people who have supported the PDGA and disc golf for a long, long time.
FACT: Our entire crew works very long and hard throughout the year to promote the entire disc golf industry, and the PDGA, most times with very little monetary reward to show for it. We love the game; that's why we do it. If that is considered "Vanity TV," then I'll have to re-assess my use of the word.
MY OPINION: A Vote for Mr. Shive is a vote for the PDGA taking a step backwards, especially when you consider his voting record, in which Mr. Shive is almost always the lone vote on advancing issues. Disc golf will be fine with or without the PDGA...the question is whether the PDGA will be able to stay relevant into the future, especially with such backwards thinking related to media and the benefits it offers the association.
I invite you to continue your discussions in this space, but would urge you to make sure that you are getting the entire story from any contributor before jumping on board or off the bandwagon.
I will make no further comments in this space, but do invite you to call me to discuss any DGPtv // disc golf-related matter at 215-913-0569. I welcome your feedback and input there.
Thanks for your consideration and see you at the PDGA Worlds in a couple weeks!
John Duesler, Principal
DGPtv
#####
While Mr. Shive seems to be obsessed with our Live Internet broadcasting "boondoogle," his argument is skillfully (and purposely, I would guess) crafted to present only one-side of our proposal that was presented at the PDGA Fall Board Summit. The fact remains that the PDGA is loosing 30-50% of our annual membership renewals (which is not surprising if one happens upon Mr. Shive's, a PDGA Board Member, comments here). Though the PDGA does benefit from a major influx of new members each year to off-set this loss, our proposal at the Fall Summit specifically laid out a plan to cut the attrition rate of our PDGA membership significantly enough to more than make up for the $70,000 we proposed for our media efforts. The hook would be that our media efforts would create a stronger connection between the PDGA and its members, as well as provide it some timely content that would further connect with members and non-members alike, therefore giving the PDGA our sport's leadership position that it deserves. This part of the story should be known, since Mr. Shive has opted to only describe the expense side of the PDGA ledger, again while purposely neglecting to describe the income side.
The truth is that DGPtv is an ardent supporter and ambassador for the association wherever we go! You should know how energized our disc golfers are when they see us onsite and know that the event they are playing in is going to be on DGPtv or TV! Most of the time they tell me, "Thanks PDGA for doing this!"
Clearly, contributors to this thread are entitled to your opinions, but it may be worthwhile to consider some of the FACTS of this media issue related to DGPtv:
FACT: DGPtv received approximately 1/3 of what we requested at the Fall Summit to support our media efforts this year, all while EXPANDING our coverage to 4 TV shows this year, in addition to our ambitious live Internet streaming schedule. The money we receive from the PDGA is barely enough to pay for ONE SHOW (the Memorial Internet & TV show alone costs $31,097 to produce), let alone constitute a "boondoogle." (Great word by-the-way, but totally misused here in this context.)
FACT: DGPtv has/is producing four 30-minute TV Shows that will put Disc Golf potentially in front of over 82 million households who can watch our top events on at least 21 regional sports networks around the nation (i.e. potential new/already registered PDGA members who watch the PDGA commercial and follow the NT schedule with our promotional spots-- http://youtu.be/Q0B8eVcYgfw). If the mission of the PDGA is to promote disc golf, then nothing else it has ever supported has had this kind of impact...NOTHING!
FACT: DGPtv has been watched live and online in no less than 133 nations around the world over the last four years. Viewers watch for an average of 27 minutes during each broadcast (sorry Mr. Shive...you quality of the broadcast argument doesn't jibe the quantity of these analytics!)
FACT: DGPtv is operated almost 100% by current/active PDGA members, who have been in the sport for quite a long time (this is my 26th year in the sport). These are people who have supported the PDGA and disc golf for a long, long time.
FACT: Our entire crew works very long and hard throughout the year to promote the entire disc golf industry, and the PDGA, most times with very little monetary reward to show for it. We love the game; that's why we do it. If that is considered "Vanity TV," then I'll have to re-assess my use of the word.
MY OPINION: A Vote for Mr. Shive is a vote for the PDGA taking a step backwards, especially when you consider his voting record, in which Mr. Shive is almost always the lone vote on advancing issues. Disc golf will be fine with or without the PDGA...the question is whether the PDGA will be able to stay relevant into the future, especially with such backwards thinking related to media and the benefits it offers the association.
I invite you to continue your discussions in this space, but would urge you to make sure that you are getting the entire story from any contributor before jumping on board or off the bandwagon.
I will make no further comments in this space, but do invite you to call me to discuss any DGPtv // disc golf-related matter at 215-913-0569. I welcome your feedback and input there.
Thanks for your consideration and see you at the PDGA Worlds in a couple weeks!
John Duesler, Principal
DGPtv
#####
turbosteve
Eagle Member
What were the ratings of the first tv show on the beach sports network?
biscoe
* Ace Member *
vote Shive!!!
turbosteve
Eagle Member
The PDGA should consider changing its name because people think you have to be a pro to join.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2071970#post2071970
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2071970#post2071970
shive
Par Member
Response to John Duesler
I began my comments about disc golf TV/video almost a month ago. I wish that John Duesler had entered into the discussion at that time. An informed debate before the election, rather than well into the voting period, would have been much more useful. Interested readers should certainly look closely at the points that John makes in his post (#324 in this thread) and compare them with the comments that I made in posts #200, 204, 218, 221, 226, 242, 272 (summary). Now I'll just comment briefly about a couple of John's new comments.
John tells us that it cost over $30,000 to produce the recent Memorial video, and invites us to watch it (http://youtu.be/Q0B8eVcYgfw). Please do so, and then ask yourself what its intrinsic value should be. Ask yourself, for example, how much more it is worth than Jonathan Gomez's clip from the 2012 Pro Worlds (www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZBbSH4n2dU), which cost us nothing. I'm not arguing that John isn't a sincere, competent guy. I am arguing in general that the cost to produce this stuff is not worth the returns, especially in view of the wonderful stuff put out by many independent producers. I feel that we should not put all our eggs into one basket, but should encourage some of the other capable people out there.
John says, "Though the PDGA does benefit from a major influx of new members each year to off-set this loss, our proposal at the Fall Summit specifically laid out a plan to cut the attrition rate of our PDGA membership significantly enough to more than make up for the $70,000 we proposed for our media efforts." No DGPtv proposal insults our intelligence more than this one. It is absurd to think that we can cut membership attrition by paying a lot of money for more programs for the watchers. Those members aren't dropping out because there isn't enough stuff to watch. Even if they were, they can still drop out and watch for nothing.
I began my comments about disc golf TV/video almost a month ago. I wish that John Duesler had entered into the discussion at that time. An informed debate before the election, rather than well into the voting period, would have been much more useful. Interested readers should certainly look closely at the points that John makes in his post (#324 in this thread) and compare them with the comments that I made in posts #200, 204, 218, 221, 226, 242, 272 (summary). Now I'll just comment briefly about a couple of John's new comments.
John tells us that it cost over $30,000 to produce the recent Memorial video, and invites us to watch it (http://youtu.be/Q0B8eVcYgfw). Please do so, and then ask yourself what its intrinsic value should be. Ask yourself, for example, how much more it is worth than Jonathan Gomez's clip from the 2012 Pro Worlds (www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZBbSH4n2dU), which cost us nothing. I'm not arguing that John isn't a sincere, competent guy. I am arguing in general that the cost to produce this stuff is not worth the returns, especially in view of the wonderful stuff put out by many independent producers. I feel that we should not put all our eggs into one basket, but should encourage some of the other capable people out there.
John says, "Though the PDGA does benefit from a major influx of new members each year to off-set this loss, our proposal at the Fall Summit specifically laid out a plan to cut the attrition rate of our PDGA membership significantly enough to more than make up for the $70,000 we proposed for our media efforts." No DGPtv proposal insults our intelligence more than this one. It is absurd to think that we can cut membership attrition by paying a lot of money for more programs for the watchers. Those members aren't dropping out because there isn't enough stuff to watch. Even if they were, they can still drop out and watch for nothing.
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2007
- Messages
- 4,525
Interesting that in that the span of a paragraph, "FACT" is defined first as "potential" and then it changes to an emphatically "in the bank" kind of "impact".
Yes.....this sort of feedback will be interesting to follow.
I applaud the efforts of the PDGA & DGPtv for trying to do something to experiment with viewership and correlate that to growth of the sport as that is their stated mission. But, I am afraid that we will all learn what most of us feel we already know.....that DG is not a spectator sport and never will be.
I would wager quite a bit that looking back in say 20 years time, even JD will acknowledge that PS was on the right side of history on this issue.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
any individual who has ever put in a course anywhere has done more to promote the growth of disc golf than the sum of all of the efforts made to broadcast it whether broadcasting on tv or the net.
keith johnson
Birdie Member
You are CORRECT sir!
shive
Par Member
A strong way to put it, but perhaps strong words are needed to counter the amazing hype that usually attends disc golf video/TV proposals. I see it as an imbablance of priority. I'd much rather see us spend the many tens of thousands of dollars on TD benefits, grass roots initiatives, education, and (yes) new courses.
Really, Mr. Deusler?
All the potential in the world and $1 will buy you a small coffee at McDonalds.
You really want to talk facts and analytics? How about some factual answers to a few questions:
How many of the 82 million households that subscribe to the 21 regional networks actually watched the segment?
How many of those viewers are not current PDGA members?
How many of those viewers aren't also DGPtv subscribers?
How many viewers had no prior exposure to disc golf?
How many new and renewing members identified DGPtv as a primary factor in their decision to join/renew?
A) including, obviously, its financial support for the activities of a certain former Director of Marketing and Communications;
B) I personally know of over 100 families from one private school who have taken up disc golf as a regular family activity over the past two years as a result of their children's exposure to disc golf through the EDGE program at their school, and half a dozen high school and college age who have competed in PDGA-sanctioned tournaments for whom EDGE was their introduction to disc golf, and three churches that have bought portable baskets and discs and laid out courses on their properties at the instigation of some of those families. Given the number of individual schools, school districts, churches, and camps using EDGE, I guaran-dam-tee EDGE has a helluva lot more REAL impact than DGPtv has.
In how many of those 133 countries were the viewers citizens or permanent residents, as opposed to visitors such as US servicemen and servicewomen, temporary workers, students, tourists, or in transit to a farther destination?
What do the analytics of viewer and DGPtv subscriber comments say about the quality of the broadcast and the commentary say? (But we all already know the answer to that, don't we?)
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crashzero
Birdie Member
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2009
- Messages
- 293
As time goes on, fewer players want to become pros, in fact they downright despise most high level players. The anti-pro sentiment is like a virus infecting the largest percentage of disc golfers, the Am's. Its easy to see how newer players may work on their game for awhile, get frustrated when they don't get the results they wanted, and decide to jump on the anti-pro bandwagon. All this resentment for the highly skilled is unhealthy for our sport. I'm not sure what kind of future it has.
Ripper
Double Eagle Member
Boom..Headshot!!
How do I vote. Im on board with Shive.
Jomez was much better than dgptv and like that format much better. Dgptv is an embarrassment. People who say it is free is full of it.
dukdukgolf
Birdie Member
Might be true 15 years ago but i dont think it is anymore. I mean go plan a disc golf trip through several states and there are courses everywhere for you to choose from. New courses are being built everyday and its from locals. Its not the pdga's job. Pdga needs to promote the top end of the sport, pro's need to be able to make a living and TV, bigger tourneys/prize pools/sponsors is the only way we will get to the next level. Shive i think you are just behind the times. Alot of your ideas were great in the 90's.
_MTL_
Flippy Flopper
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2008
- Messages
- 3,514
I will say this:
I agree that DGPTV isn't going in the correct direction. I remember watching the Vibram at home one year live and thinking "holy crap this is awesome" and then we watched USDGC live and I thought "wow, this is great!"
And then I wanted more. Every hole. Better commentary. Less pauses. Everything. And I don't know if I would say it got worse, but it at best sustained the same level. Simply saying "last year we could only cover holes 1- 7 and 17 and 16 - 18 and this year we also got hole 12" isn't an improvement in my eye, at least that you can claim.
To me, as someone with a broadcast journalist degree, the biggest issue is the commentary. Greenwell is terrible and his personal connection with Prodigy is a huge conflict of interest (his manner of informing Will at the Memorial of the penalty was UNREAL unprofessional). But once again as I've said 1000 times, what in our sport isn't a conflict of interest?
I remember at Santa Cruz the guy on the mic was horrible. Horrible.
I don't think DGPTV is ready for the type of financial commitment that it wants from the PDGA at this time. However, I do no support Shive for BOD as I feel his platform caters to a minority of players (50+) that don't need the attention right now.
My votes were Shawn Sinclair and Kevin McCoy. Mike Solt would have gotten my third vote if it were an option. If I had a 4th vote option, I would have obstained as I feel none of the other candidates are remotely close to what the PDGA needs at this time - and I will be glad to say why I feel that way about each candidate if asked.
I agree that DGPTV isn't going in the correct direction. I remember watching the Vibram at home one year live and thinking "holy crap this is awesome" and then we watched USDGC live and I thought "wow, this is great!"
And then I wanted more. Every hole. Better commentary. Less pauses. Everything. And I don't know if I would say it got worse, but it at best sustained the same level. Simply saying "last year we could only cover holes 1- 7 and 17 and 16 - 18 and this year we also got hole 12" isn't an improvement in my eye, at least that you can claim.
To me, as someone with a broadcast journalist degree, the biggest issue is the commentary. Greenwell is terrible and his personal connection with Prodigy is a huge conflict of interest (his manner of informing Will at the Memorial of the penalty was UNREAL unprofessional). But once again as I've said 1000 times, what in our sport isn't a conflict of interest?
I remember at Santa Cruz the guy on the mic was horrible. Horrible.
I don't think DGPTV is ready for the type of financial commitment that it wants from the PDGA at this time. However, I do no support Shive for BOD as I feel his platform caters to a minority of players (50+) that don't need the attention right now.
My votes were Shawn Sinclair and Kevin McCoy. Mike Solt would have gotten my third vote if it were an option. If I had a 4th vote option, I would have obstained as I feel none of the other candidates are remotely close to what the PDGA needs at this time - and I will be glad to say why I feel that way about each candidate if asked.
RyanisCorriganis
Par Member
But I play disc golf, what do I care what's on Television.
Brodysseus
* Ace Member *
Why? Why do pros need to make a living at disc golf? The money is not there for more than 10 or so pros to make a decent living... And so what? Why are touring pros entitled to a career/living playing disc golf? The money is not there from outside sponsors because we are small fish, plain and simple. And I definitely don't want my, or other amateurs', money going to a Will Schusterick, McBeth, or lesser skilled pro just because they don't want to get a real job.
This is my biggest issue with the pro-centric approach to this sport. Why do people feel like all touring (or hell, even regional) pros are entitled to money that doesn't exist? Especially when what little money there is in disc golf comes mainly from casual chuckers buying discs and weekend warriors (a.k.a people who have real careers and play the game, when they can, for their love of it). If the sport is truly going to grow and "blow up" we need to support these players, not throw our money at .01% of disc golf's player base and TV/other media broadcasts that only 1% of disc golfers/ .00000000001% of the world's population care to watch.
turbosteve
Eagle Member
I agree 100% that the commentary on DGP is really bad. I voted for Shawn Sinclair and Kevin McCoy. Out of curiosity why do you fell that the other candidates are not remotely close to what the PDGA needs?
