How to Properly throw with the "Double Move"

[Sheep]

That's right; I mentioned it in an earlier post, but I should have stated it better. What I was trying to illustrate (very poorly) was the difference between Drew dropping his arm vs. GG lifting his arm, but getting (basically) to the same place

Yeah, people want to think its an active move, but its a resistive passive move, even if it looks really active.
Which is why squish the bug is constantly taught as an active move, its a reactive move.

The best way to explain using the off arm correctly is that its an anchor or something to resist the outward swing with.
Equal and opposite stuff.

If you're trying to drive the throw with the off arm, you're going to over rotate.

Watch simon throw 150-200 foot putter shots, that off arm is ANCHORED hard and pushing against his other arm.

That's why I love the equal and opposite approach to talking about it. It's the same with the off leg, it's gotta resist the rotation to drive the chain up the body.

for us to push out with the disc in the swing, we have to apply an opposing force, that's applied with the off arm.

There isn't anything wrong with rotational throwing and I generally teach it that way, but I spent like 2 years trying to figure out off arm stuff, cause I thought the same way that we needed to punch down or punch through.
And there is a way to do it, but it's nothing like anyone seems to think it is. Because its more of a controlled passive movement. I think even more so if you were to really explain it, its something you have to consciously do, but in a passive manor. I know that if I don't use my off arm correctly it ruins my power shots. And I have to actively think about bringing it into the shot, but if you do it at the wrong time, you ruin the shot.

And GG is an example of this, its really active movement, but its got a passive purpose.

I could/should make video's on this stuff, but its a complicated topic.
And the reality of any of it is, if you dont know what you're doing, just keep your arm at your side, it will naturally do what its supposed to.

 

[itlnstln]

Exactly, it's the trouble with video, making or watching. It's hard to reconcile what you're seeing to what that person is doing/feeling ("feel vs. real," or whatever). I feel the same way about slow motion video. Sure, you can get a good idea of the positions a thrower moves through, but you're really losing a ton of information about timing and acceleration that you get from full speed. It's a bit of both

 

[Sheep]

Exactly, it's the trouble with video, making or watching. It's hard to reconcile what you're seeing to what that person is doing/feeling ("feel vs. real," or whatever). I feel the same way about slow motion video. Sure, you can get a good idea of the positions a thrower moves through, but you're really losing a ton of information about timing and acceleration that you get from full speed. It's a bit of both

Yeah, I refuse to do form checks that are submitted in "slow motion"

I need to see how you're moving and flowing.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

It sounds more to me like your timing issue is because your focused on over rotating your upper body based on you constantly using "elbow drive."

Unless you're trying to do the double move, upper body timing is generally by people trying to throw the upper body around vs drive with the brace.

To me I thought elbow drive was a way to avoid too much upper body rotation by focusing on driving the elbow instead of rotating and letting the elbow drive as it gets deeper start to pull the chest and shoulders around later on, instead of focusing more on rotation initially. If you aren't focused on elbow drive initially, what else is there to focus on but rotation? Also, I've been testing out more focus on the elbow drive to see if I can get a deeper power pocket, but when I throw hard it usually ends up closer to the left chest either way.

The ItzB1tz guy who throws 75mph standstill says he primarily focuses on the cue "elbow drive pull in a straight line" in one of his vids I saw.

At 10:20 here is a clear view of AB bringing the off arm in while his right arm is still reaching back. This is what I thought was the main takeaway of the double move but idk maybe most people know it as a more extreme version of that that's gone too far, idk what the generally agreed upon definition of it would be here by the most experienced people. He throws again right after and you can see the feet more, looks like the off arm starts coming in just before the plant lands. 11:14 is a harder throw:



At 13:22 AB says "holy lag, perfect form" about this guy throwing, I wonder what exactly he means. I've heard lag thrown around a bunch but seems like the term is used all over the place.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Yeah, people want to think its an active move, but its a resistive passive move, even if it looks really active.
Which is why squish the bug is constantly taught as an active move, its a reactive move.

The best way to explain using the off arm correctly is that its an anchor or something to resist the outward swing with.
Equal and opposite stuff.

If you're trying to drive the throw with the off arm, you're going to over rotate.

Watch simon throw 150-200 foot putter shots, that off arm is ANCHORED hard and pushing against his other arm.

That's why I love the equal and opposite approach to talking about it. It's the same with the off leg, it's gotta resist the rotation to drive the chain up the body.

for us to push out with the disc in the swing, we have to apply an opposing force, that's applied with the off arm.

There isn't anything wrong with rotational throwing and I generally teach it that way, but I spent like 2 years trying to figure out off arm stuff, cause I thought the same way that we needed to punch down or punch through.
And there is a way to do it, but it's nothing like anyone seems to think it is. Because its more of a controlled passive movement. I think even more so if you were to really explain it, its something you have to consciously do, but in a passive manor. I know that if I don't use my off arm correctly it ruins my power shots. And I have to actively think about bringing it into the shot, but if you do it at the wrong time, you ruin the shot.

And GG is an example of this, its really active movement, but its got a passive purpose.

I could/should make video's on this stuff, but its a complicated topic.
And the reality of any of it is, if you dont know what you're doing, just keep your arm at your side, it will naturally do what its supposed to.

I do like the anchor and equal / opposite conception, it does make sense. Like if figure skater was spinning in a circle clockwise and you grabbed their left arm suddenly it would cause their right arm to massively swing open. After they eat shit, you can say, "it was for disc golf science" and all will be forgiven.

 

[Mocheez]

The arm weighs around 12lbs, so moving that amount of weight quickly does add some momentum into the equation. If you bring it in front, it has to be done early to prevent premature shoulder rotation. GG does it late because he is putting it behind his back, parallel to the forward momentum of the throw.

Once the arm is tucked in, it is just an additional brace to throw against.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

The arm weighs around 12lbs, so moving that amount of weight quickly does add some momentum into the equation. If you bring it in front, it has to be done early to prevent premature shoulder rotation. GG does it late because he is putting it behind his back, parallel to the forward momentum of the throw.

Once the arm is tucked in, it is just an additional brace to throw against.

What are your overall thoughts on bringing it more behind vs more in front? Seems like in front is more common, and it seems like people who usually do it in front or more on the side are more likely to bring the off arm behind or closer to behind on harder throws.

Idk if GG also keeps it behind on medium power throws, I've only seen his form on huge throws.

 

[Mocheez]

I think it needs move to in the same direction you want the disc to go. And opposite direction during the out motion.

 

[sidewinder22]

What are your overall thoughts on bringing it more behind vs more in front? Seems like in front is more common, and it seems like people who usually do it in front or more on the side are more likely to bring the off arm behind or closer to behind on harder throws.

Idk if GG also keeps it behind on medium power throws, I've only seen his form on huge throws.

All different power shots the same motion:

 

[Casey 1988]

The main takeaway is that the off-arm doesn't start/push the shoulders but instead acts as a counterbalance to lead arm during the throw.

Yes I have seen same from most power players with only one example of not using arm but keeping tucked in like a distance runner and player Ken Franks or known as Ken the Tank Franks, he was just using his power from being a University of Nebraska Linman, lifting and kept up in winter lifting before going on old PDGA National Tour. Ken the Tank Franks was using all power and ruined his body and by sometime in 2010 was toast after staring in 2006 due to not able to play Football anymore becuse of a concussion so bad if he got another big concussion it he was done and in 2007 was going pro evenually good enough to play on a PDGA National Tour event even getting Innova's attention due to power guy would get on his max distance drives. For Ken it took almost 10 years before he was playing in Open again and a lowest tier sponsor on Dynamic Disc, probably even working for company at the time and since has left company/sponsor.

Even a Cousin when he could throw 550-600 feet max, he would use his arm as a counterbalance doing a proper max throw, all before an injury (with lawsuit money) working as a garbageman on back and who city of Brockton NY hired for working inside and how his arm now clicks all the time even rotator cuff surgery will not fix as injury was skeletal in a way even surgery will not fix.

 

[Sheep]

Point.

The off arm is a counter balance.

Because its such an active looking motion, people think its a driving force of the throw. Especially when you see someone like double G and his really unique style of throwing which came from him being really really large person. He's been throwing like that since he was like 14, and he used to be really fat.

But its a resistive anchor, not an active driving momentum force multiplier.


When we look at the swing as a whole, every action has to have something to react to or were just going to spin and throw, or were going to destroy the kinetic chain.

The simplest form of the breakdown in the throw is that we are driving force from the ground into the disc. But as soon as you try and cheat that process, you destroy that energy.
When you squish the bug, throw the hips, double move or any of these things, you're going to kill the chain because the chain has to have something to resist against to drive itself into the throw.


Can you throw driving your off arm through? Sure.
But you're really just throwing with the shoulders at that point.

Is there maybe a time and place to do it? also yes.

But you can also blow your shoulder out trying to do it like a guy I talk to from one of the discord chats. He threw out his off arm trying to "double move" and now he can't play for the last 6 months.

There is no magic sauce.
There is no magic move.

While these "moves" appear to work when you use them, its because you've never actually thrown the disc good and proper prior to that either, so yeah, you might get a distance gain with the double move. But its because you've probably not ever thrown the disc with more than your arm, and now your throwing with your shoulders and arm.

 

[Sewer bill]

When I try to throw unnecessarily hard I find using the off arm lifted up and out with no effort it acts like a damper and helps get the timing right. Something about the weight transition.

I don't throw 600 though so maybe I'm just goofing around making no meaningful change.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Point.

The off arm is a counter balance.

Because its such an active looking motion, people think its a driving force of the throw. Especially when you see someone like double G and his really unique style of throwing which came from him being really really large person. He's been throwing like that since he was like 14, and he used to be really fat.

But its a resistive anchor, not an active driving momentum force multiplier.


When we look at the swing as a whole, every action has to have something to react to or were just going to spin and throw, or were going to destroy the kinetic chain.

The simplest form of the breakdown in the throw is that we are driving force from the ground into the disc. But as soon as you try and cheat that process, you destroy that energy.
When you squish the bug, throw the hips, double move or any of these things, you're going to kill the chain because the chain has to have something to resist against to drive itself into the throw.


Can you throw driving your off arm through? Sure.
But you're really just throwing with the shoulders at that point.

Is there maybe a time and place to do it? also yes.

But you can also blow your shoulder out trying to do it like a guy I talk to from one of the discord chats. He threw out his off arm trying to "double move" and now he can't play for the last 6 months.

There is no magic sauce.
There is no magic move.

While these "moves" appear to work when you use them, its because you've never actually thrown the disc good and proper prior to that either, so yeah, you might get a distance gain with the double move. But its because you've probably not ever thrown the disc with more than your arm, and now your throwing with your shoulders and arm.

So what the heck is your definition of the double move?

People talk about Drew doing the double move. The main point I hear about the double move is bringing the off arm in a bit before the reach back finishes. I haven't heard anyone say after that if you drop it down and anchor / counterbalance then you're not doing the double move.

So at this point it almost seems like confusing semantics to me where some people use the term but then say a lot of the same things you are saying with it. Maybe when the term / advice first came out it was too narrowly focused but then evolved to include more nuance. I haven't been around disc golf long enough to have seen all this stuff happen so idk.

 

[Sheep]

So what the heck is your definition of the double move?

The double move is a gimmick that is not what elite throwers use.

This whole thread is a joke about it being bullshit.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

The double move is a gimmick that is not what elite throwers use.

This whole thread is a joke about it being bullshit.

Yes, but if you actually want to make the point clear and persuasive to new readers who come to this thread then it would help to define what it is. Just saying it's a gimmick isn't defining it. How do I identify the double move compared to what elite throwers are doing?

I searched double move trying to find out why people here say it's bad and this is what I found. Do you define what it is somewhere else?

 

[Kennets]

That.

 

[Sheep]

Yes, but if you actually want to make the point clear and persuasive to new readers who come to this thread then it would help to define what it is. Just saying it's a gimmick isn't defining it. How do I identify the double move compared to what elite throwers are doing?

I searched double move trying to find out why people here say it's bad and this is what I found. Do you define what it is somewhere else?

The point was quite clear.
Anyone searching for it would see that the distance champion was NOT using the double move, because its bullcrap.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

That.

In the intro clip throw it does look overly exaggerated with how far the off arm goes across in front, but then it starts dropping down and anchoring / counter balancing it seems. So is it just that first exaggeration the people here say is bad?

 

[Kennets]

I guess you haven't been around long enough to follow his content.

It's not just "the double move", it's his concept of being a slick car salesman, that (mostly) gives Ill advices and have next to no clue about biomechanics (I'm biased here.. can't stand the dude)

He's been putting emphasis on that it's the off arm (and back leg) that drives the swing and not a solid brace. That you need to ACTIVELY fire the off arm and turn the rear leg in to get a rotational throw, when in fact, the two things are biproducts of a great brace AND the right posture, timing and sequence etc.. oh and a lateral shift.

With mcbeth in the slowmo, you can see that he shifts from behind and do not fire the off arm to start the throw.

I might be wrong and eat my words, bit whilst the offhand definitely helps to accelerate the throw in some manner, I am a firm believer you and many others thinks of it in a wrong way with the "stretch reflex" in the upper back and how it's a BIG boost to distance..

In my opinion it isn't and it's more a byproduct of correct sequencing, timing, posture along with the right swing thought.

 

[itlnstln]

The initial move isn't what pros are doing. The suggestion in Slingshot's video and others' is that the initial move with the off-arm triggers the upper body/shoulders to start moving, and that's not what's happening. Any anchoring he's doing later in the throw might be correct (and probably incidental, which is also correct), but anything about the off arm triggering movement is incorrect and counterproductive