Is there a CA curve??

[trashmonster1985]

Now my disclaimer is this i live in extreme northern ca. its not really quite "Cali" up here. but i've been to NC and live here in California. Nc does have a large amount of good courses. but, i hate to sound like a jerk, but there isn't exactly a lot of other recreational activities out in NC like there are here. So the good courses are spread out across the state. if there are are 10 good courses in one small area, of course each one isn't getting the same reviews it would get if it were the only one in the area. that makes perfect sense. but for CA having a bad attitude, there is a lot of anger in this thread towards the californians just trying to get a little love on here since the site is dominated by by east coasters. and what about oregon? thats my home state and other than having 2 to 3 courses in the top ten at various times no one gives oregon much love.

and how does geography and scenery NOT play into a course? thats half of it for me. I wouldn't have thought of NC as being quite as beautiful if i hadn't tromped around on a few courses out there. Of course i am excluding western NC with that. that whole area is beautiful.

 

[trashmonster1985]

sorry all, west michigan has the best disc golf anywhere... i ve seen a lot of cali players come out here and find out they aren't as good as they thought...

im not so sure being difficult makes a course that much better. i mean i like challenging, but i also sometimes like to boost the old self esteem too, so. i like having both.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The reason? The nastiest pin locations I've ever seen (throughout an entire course). There are few places to feel comfortable putting. This leads of course to shanked putts, rollaways, and all kinds of misadventures.

Fluky rollaway potential and the inability to use skill to throw to a "safe" green position are negatives not positives in course designs for competitive play. That's a common distinction between the sensibilities of rec players versus tournament players and a significant reason you see difference in reviews for a variety of courses depending on whether the player reviews a course from a tournament perspective versus day to day play. Generalization is that rec players find randomness and lucky design elements more fun versus competitive players who look for design elements that are appropriate risk/reward, not just risk.

 

[Jukeshoe]

Regarding the OP's post:

I do not think there is a "CA Curve" to speak of. I'm a midwesterner who recently played 5 SoCal Courses and 1 up in the mountains in Wrightwood (I believe that constitutes two separate "regions" as listed above). I did notice that the courses seemed to be inflated in their ratings. Most notably Huntington Beach and El Dorado. However, when I reviewed those courses to my typical standards (i.e., lower than the average rating) I got nothing but thumbs up. So it's probably not an issue of "entrenched" locals rabidly protecting their ratings. I'm guessing it is more an issue of the reasoning why you rated it as you did.

 

[TempleOfDoom]

Let's see what the Champ has to say about Dela.

"DeLaveaga Park - Santa Cruz, California
Okay sports fans, here is your dream course. Awesome views, serious elevation change, danger everywhere. DeLaveaga will work you hard for 27 holes while not once allowing you to drop your guard. The fairways are dangerous. The greens are dangerous. The entire place is loaded with pitfalls, yet there is hardly a more fun place to play golf on the planet. This park just brings a challenge to the table that most players cannot answer."

 

[zenbot]

OK, I grant that my old review of Morley was a little weak. But the score stands. It is a good course, but not exceptional. Since then I have played a few more courses, and taking a few thumbs down beatings. No big deal. But someone needs to let the CA gang know that your courses aren't all that. Get over yourselves. You may have the best weather, and the best geography, but those things alone don't make a great course. Get out of the sun a little and go play around the country. There are a few other states, and some better courses out there. I find it really amusing to watch you guys systematically hammer anyone that doesn't overly praise your ground. So my question is this...do I need to add a disc or two to your 'real' scores to keep you happy? Is there a curve or affirmative action program no one told me about? Please educate me so I know how to keep the West Coast members happy.

By the way, Tanner at the shop in Escondido seemed to be an exception to the CA way. Friendly, helpful, and knew his course wasn't perfect. Yet. He will work on it rather than rely on weather and the CA vibe to carry his water. Congrats to him for intellectual honesty. It seems rare in the West.

DISCLAIMER-I lived in CA for 10 years and loved it. It is the most beautiful State in the USA, with the best geography for DG. Now tell me why you guys are so bitter!

This should be fun. Let the rants begin...

Just like this post your reviews sound very bitter.

Here was your opening con for Casitas:

$10/$15 to play a round. Almost criminal to charge that much. Come on Californians, get your State in order.

The $10-15 dollar is per car not per round. Ventura Disc Golf isn't seeing any money on that fee. It's day use for the entire lake. You can park outside the gate, hike in, and play for free if you like. I think 4 is a fair rating for the course but you have these overtones in your written review that are very off-putting.

Insulting people usually doesn't get them to do what you want them to.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Let's see what the Champ has to say about Dela.

The Champ is listed as a designer on how many courses on this site? There are a handful of top players, who have the resumes to back it up, whose confidence is so high that they believe their skills can overcome even the most luck riddled challenges.

 

[dreadlock86]

Meh, it happens all over the place. I wrote a review for Lafrienere park in Metairie, LA and have 0 up and 3 down - despite a descriptive and honest review.

There's always homers - just ignore them. FWIW I think Stafford is overrated, lol.

your review was great, i gave you :thmbup:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=84&page=1&mode=rev#19544

Just like this post your reviews sound very bitter.

Here was your opening con for Casitas:


The $10-15 dollar is per car not per round. Ventura Disc Golf isn't seeing any money on that fee. It's day use for the entire lake. You can park outside the gate, hike in, and play for free if you like. I think 4 is a fair rating for the course but you have these overtones in your written review that are very off-putting.

Insulting people usually doesn't get them to do what you want them to.

:clap:



all that said, i agree that there is a california bias but also agree with this

I agree that there IS a California curve, but it is justified. California is a huge state, and other states are pretty far away, making interstate reviews less likely. We have to review our courses subjectively based on what is available in our region.

i'm a california native but i didn't start playing DG until moved away, so my home courses are in upstate NY. but having played a number of CA courses at this point, most don't seem to measure up and have "inflated" ratings.

i'd love to be able to nominate texas for one of the best DG regions but unfortunately, i don't think that there are enough terrain variety or elevation changes. but texas does have a number of great fun and challenging courses that are very well designed. we're lucky to have so many houck courses here.

harry myers, veterans, the beast, circle c and circle r... texas is lucky

 

[JHern]

i'm a california native but i didn't start playing DG until moved away, so my home courses are in upstate NY. but having played a number of CA courses at this point, most don't seem to measure up and have "inflated" ratings.

Sorry I have to post this AGAIN, but maybe you (and others) might care to be a little more specific?

Where did you play? Following are the regions:

Tahoe Region:
-North Tahoe Regional Park
-Bijou Community Park
-Squaw Valley DGC
-Truckee River Regional Park
-Turtle Rock Park/Markleeville
-Kirkwood Mountain Resort
-Gold Ridge Forest DGC
-Rick's Revenge
-Zephyr Cove Park (just in NV, but part of Tahoe)

Sierra Foothills:
-Finnon Reservoir
-Georgetown School
-Lions Park/Placerville
-Somerset Country Club
-Gold Ridge Forest/Pollock Pines
-Pioneer Park/Somerset
-Auburn Regional Park
-Hanging Oaks/Penn Valley
-Condon Park/Grass Valley
-Hammon Grove Park/Browns Valley
-Toney's Mountain Golf
-Lava Creek/Paradise
-Bidwell Park/Chico
-Sherwood Forest/Chico
-Riverbend Park/Oroville
-Sunset Hills Golf Course
-New Hogan Dam/Valley Springs
-Monument Ridge/Raymond
-Hensley Lake/Raymond
-Hume Lake Country Club
-Meadowbrook/Tehachapi
-Helmers Park/Ridgecrest
-Shady Rest Pines/Mammoth Lakes

Central Valley (Sacramento and San Joaquin Valleys):
-San Lauren Park/Bakersfield
-Kern River/Bakersfield
-Silver Creek Park/Bakersfield
-Westside Park/Wasco
-Riverview Park/Bakersfield
-Franklin Field/Taft
-Hart Park - Shark Tooth Mtn.
-Hart Park - Suicide Flats
-"A" Street/Taft
-Perry Championship DGC/Visalia
-Perry Outback DGC/Visalia
-Troy Korsgaden DGC/Visalia
-Centennial Park/Hanford
-Elk Bayou Park/Tulare
-Hensley Lake/Raymond
-Monument Ridge/Raymond
-Woodward Legacy/Fresno
-Firebaugh
-Coalinga
-Fahrens Park/Merced
-Arakelian Park/Livingston
-Dorotha Mae Pitts Park/Stockton
-Mike Garrigan Park/Stockton
-Oak Grove Regional Park/Stockton
-Michael Faklis Park/Stockton
-East La Loma Park/Modesto
-Elk Grove
-Covell Greenbelt/Davis
-Oxford Circle Park/Davis
-Fern Park/Woodland
-Regency Community Park/Sacramento
-John Mackey Park/Sacramento
-Albert Schweitzer Park/Carmichael
-National/Johnson Field/Travis AFB
-Lagoon Valley/Vacaville
-Shady Oaks Park/Orangevale
-Rocklin
-Black Butte Lake/Orland
-Willows

North North Central (State of "Jefferson," heh):
-Mount Shasta
-University of OB/Weed
-Simpson University/Redding
-Enterprise Community Park/Redding
-Lee Fong Park/Weaverville
-Horsetown/Redding
-Anderson River Park/Anderson
-Black Butte DGC/Shingletown

North Coast/North Coast Ranges:
-Manila Bay
-Mad River Pump Station #4/Arcata
-Humboldt State University/Arcata
-Cooper Gulch/Eureka
-College of the Redwoods/Eureka
-Beachfront Park DGC/Crescent City
-Joe Hamilton Elementary/Crescent City
-Steelhead DGC at Creekside/Willow Creek
-Southern Humbolt Community Park/Garberville
-Manchester Beach KOA/Manchester
-Mendocino High School/Mendocino
-Anderson Valley Brewing Company/Boonville
-College of the Redwoods/Fort Bragg
-Low Gap Park/Ukiah
-Mendocino College/Ukiah
-Lake Mendocino - South/Ukiah
-Lake Mendocino - North/Ukiah
-KOA Campground/Willits
-Cloverdale-KOA Campground/Cloverdale
-Highland Springs Reservoir/Lakeport
-Clear Lake High School/Lakeport
-Crane Creek/Rohnert Park
-Lucchesi Park/Petaluma
-Stafford Lake County Park/Novato
-Skyline Wilderness Park/Napa

Central Coast (Golden Gate Bridge to Point Conception):
-Chabot Park/San Leandro
-Aquatic Park/Berkeley
-Moraga Commons Park/Moraga
-Golden Gate Park/San Francisco
-Old Ranch Park/San Ramon
-California School for the Deaf/Fremont
-Venture Christian Church/Los Gatos
-Parque De La Raza/San Jose
-Hellyer Park (Coyote Creek DGC)/San Jose
-Scotts Valley High School Circuit/Scotts Valley
-Aptos High School
-Pinto Lake/Watsonville
-DeLaveaga Park/Santa Cruz
-Black Mouse DGC/Felton
-U.C. Santa Cruz
-Old Sawmill/Pebble Beach
-Eagle Eye/Monterey
-Don Dahvee Open Space/Monterey
-Ryan Ranch/Monterey
-Carmel Middle School/Carmel
-CSUMB Cypress Course/Seaside
-CSUMB Oaks Course/Seaside
-Laguna Lake/San Luis Obispo
-Sinsheimer Park/San Luis Obispo
-Preisker/Santa Maria
-Waller Park/Santa Maria
-Heilmann Park/Atascadero
-Vandenberg AFB
-Golden Hills/Paso Robles
-White Oaks Hotel Course/Lompoc

SoCal Coast (Santa Barbara to Tijuana):
-Coyote Point DGC @ Lake Casitas/Ventura
-Conejo Valley YMCA/Thousand Oaks
-Rabbit Flats/Thousand Oaks
-Lake Piru Recreation Area/Piru
-Central Park/Saugus
-Isla Vista Peace Course/Isla Vista
-Sylmar
-Evergreen Open Space/Goleta
-Polliwog Park/Manhattan Beach
-Mills Park/Carson
-Rabbit Flats/Thousand Oaks
-Private Anderson Park/Carson
-El Dorado Park/Long Beach
-Liberty Park/Cerritos
-Chavez Ridge DGC at Elysian/Los Angeles
-Huntington Beach Central Park/Huntington Beach
-Twila-Reid Park/Anaheim
-La Mirada
-Whittier Narrows Park/South El Monte
-Oak Grove (Hahamongna Park)/Pasadena
-Frontier Park/Tustin
-Deerfield Community Park/Irvine
-Northside Park/Azusa
-Kit Carson Park/Escondido
-Montiel Park/San Marcos
-CSU San Marcos/San Marcos
-Sunset Park/San Marcos
-Sun Valley/La Mesa
-Morley Field/San Diego
-Camp Pendleton
-Pine Valley

Inland Empire and Vicinity:
-Yucaipa Regional Park/Yucaipa
-Ford Park/Redlands
-Doris Davies Park/Victorville
-Palm Desert/Palm Desert
-Van Buren Golf Center/Riverside
-Wrightwood Country Club/Wrightwood
-Sunrise DGC @ Mtn. High North/Wrightwood
-River Walk/Corona
-Prado/Chino

 

[mashnut]

For me, the biggest issue that I've encountered is the rating of most of the 9 holers in the LA area, many of them are cramped little courses in crowded parks, and still often get rated as average or above, I can't believe that there are almost 2000 courses worse than the one in Azusa...

 

[NDABRUSH]

Just like this post your reviews sound very bitter.

Here was your opening con for Casitas:


The $10-15 dollar is per car not per round. Ventura Disc Golf isn't seeing any money on that fee. It's day use for the entire lake. You can park outside the gate, hike in, and play for free if you like. I think 4 is a fair rating for the course but you have these overtones in your written review that are very off-putting.

Insulting people usually doesn't get them to do what you want them to.

It would be interesting to see if more people pay to get in for the DG or the other activities. Must be a kick azz course if people frequent it. Surely there is a year pass. If not, consider yourselves bent over. Especially if none of the entry fee goes back into the course for new baskets and signs. With an entry fee like that, you would expect it to have current/new everything, with wind flags.

 

[Peterb]

Fluky rollaway potential and the inability to use skill to throw to a "safe" green position are negatives not positives in course designs for competitive play. That's a common distinction between the sensibilities of rec players versus tournament players and a significant reason you see difference in reviews for a variety of courses depending on whether the player reviews a course from a tournament perspective versus day to day play. Generalization is that rec players find randomness and lucky design elements more fun versus competitive players who look for design elements that are appropriate risk/reward, not just risk.

As in, if I run that putt but miss it, then it's not worth it at this point in the tournament. Or if I hit it, then it is. Gotcha. I'm sorry Chuck but I have to completely disagree with your assessment of Dela's "greens" as being only fun for rec players and frustrating for pros. Every touring pro that I know loves Dela precisely because it makes players ass clench: the course design itself causes hesitation. This leads to your golden rule of having scoring spreads that separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

[tmahan]

As an east coaster who's played and reviewed several CA courses I think the ratings are pretty straight up. It has two of my favorites, Dela and Humboldt State University. I love the greens at Dela and definitely consider them a feature, especially #4. If you're pin high and more than 25' to the left you are definitely doing some serious puckering. The Redwood Curtain is the most unique and arguably the most scenic course I've played. I think Oak Grove may get a half a disc bump for being the first course, Morley may get a bump for the weather and the vibe (but then lose it due to the crowds).

Most of them share the same pros, scenic, nice use of elevation, good weather (mostly). They also share some cons, dusty (making it hard to get a good grip) and prone to erosion and over-crowding.

Lake Casitas (despite the fact it's Zenbot's home course) and Stafford Lake are near the top of my wish list.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I'm sorry Chuck but I have to completely disagree with your assessment of Dela's "greens" as being only fun for rec players and frustrating for pros. Every touring pro that I know loves Dela precisely because it makes players ass clench: the course design itself causes hesitation. This leads to your golden rule of having scoring spreads that separate the wheat from the chaff.

Scoring spread is only good if it doesn't come from luck but different results from skill differences. There are greens at Dela and several other places with erosion and exposed roots where there's no definable landing area that you have a "safe" landing if you hit it. You try to throw as flat as possible and slide in, hoping you don't slide by, flip up on a rock, root or basket lock and roll. Newer course designs place timbers about 20 feet or so below baskets on slopes to reduce the penalty for fluky rollaways. That's a fluky aspect of our game that's quite different from BG since we have to elevate the projectile above the ground unlike the majority of putts in BG. In BG, there's usually a safer place to land on the green than others. In DG, if it's all risk where you close your eyes and can get the same result as if they're open, it's only risk with no reward.

 

[TempleOfDoom]

Here's the thing about putting at Dela. You have to commit one way or the other. If you're going to lay up, you have to go at the lock. If you're gong to putt, you have to go at the chains, with authority. The throws that get you in trouble are the half assed putt/layup shots where you're trying to not go too far past if you miss. Those will mess you up every time.

 

[Peterb]

Scoring spread is only good if it doesn't come from luck but different results from skill differences. There are greens at Dela and several other places with erosion and exposed roots where there's no definable landing area that you have a "safe" landing if you hit it. You try to throw as flat as possible and slide in, hoping you don't slide by, flip up on a rock, root or basket lock and roll. Newer course designs place timbers about 20 feet or so below baskets on slopes to reduce the penalty for fluky rollaways. That's a fluky aspect of our game that's quite different from BG since we have to elevate the projectile above the ground unlike the majority of putts in BG. In BG, there's usually a safer place to land on the green than others. In DG, if it's all risk where you close your eyes and can get the same result as if they're open, it's only risk with no reward.

I disagree. There's plenty of risk/reward on dela's greens. Take hole two (in the ledge position) for instance. Lets say you get a good drive and land the disc within 30 feet of the basket. You then have a decision to make. Shall I go for it and risk missing the basket and going down the steep hill? Or shall I lay it up and take my 3? That is as pure as risk/reward gets in my book. If you overshoot your layup and end up going down the hill anyways, then you lack the skill to execute a decent layup...something you need at Dela.

 

[optidiscic]

I dream about dela....seems the mre I hear the complaints about it...the more It appeals to me. Kind of like some guys might complain a girl is too thin or too busty or too pretty or all of the above.

 

[Peterb]

I dream about dela....seems the mre I hear the complaints about it...the more It appeals to me. Kind of like some guys might complain a girl is too thin or too busty or too pretty or all of the above.

Like I've told you...GET YOUR ASS ON A PLANE AND GET OUT HERE!!!

 

[dreadlock86]

I disagree. There's plenty of risk/reward on dela's greens. Take hole two (in the ledge position) for instance. Lets say you get a good drive and land the disc within 30 feet of the basket. You then have a decision to make. Shall I go for it and risk missing the basket and going down the steep hill? Or shall I lay it up and take my 3? That is as pure as risk/reward gets in my book. If you overshoot your layup and end up going down the hill anyways, then you lack the skill to execute a decent layup...something you need at Dela.

i'm not familiar with this course but i think i have to agree with chuck. hole 2 is 258' so most pros are looking to park this hole, i assume. the risk here is not that you might miss a 30' putt and get a bad roll, it is that you park your drive but get a fluky rollaway cuz there is no safe green at all.

perhaps you guys are looking at this from different perspectives of skill. chuck is addressing the problems with the course from the eyes of a pro level player.

Sorry I have to post this AGAIN, but maybe you (and others) might care to be a little more specific?

Where did you play?

i see your point.
i've mainly only played LA area courses, so socal coast according to your regions. i've also played golden gate and aquatic park, which were phenomenal and mediocre, respectively.

 

[Peterb]

i'm not familiar with this course but i think i have to agree with chuck. hole 2 is 258' so most pros are looking to park this hole, i assume. the risk here is not that you might miss a 30' putt and get a bad roll, it is that you park your drive but get a fluky rollaway cuz there is no safe green at all.

perhaps you guys are looking at this from different perspectives of skill. chuck is addressing the problems with the course from the eyes of a pro level player.

Hole 2 might be a 260 foot hole, but it is a severe uphill, so it plays more like 375-425. In the ledge position, the basket is situated at the top of a steep dropoff. There's nothing flukey about it. Either you go at it or you don't.

Also you and Chuck seem to be assuming that I'm a rec player or something. In fact, I took pro cash at my first attempt at playing pro. I play with top level pros all the time, so its not like I'm some rec player who has no clue.