Laura Nagtegaal 2019 Amateur World Champion FA40

[Jsmithey]

A woman transitioning to a man does not have the physical advantages of a man turning into a woman, so it shouldn't be much of a problem.

I dont know of ANY tests by the PDGA, so i dont know about any tests of testosterone either.

Testosterone is commonly tested for by your doctor if you've ever had blood work done at your doctor. Also commonly tested if a patient has thyroid issues.

 

[Jsmithey]

Some people use the term pre/post op transgender

i.e someone who hasnt had surgery would be a pre-op trans woman someone who has would be a post-op trans woman.

I should also add as Nova stated it's courteous to refer to both as a woman she/her unless asked for other pro nouns.

 

[Jsmithey]

And also your average joe can buy P90X without a doctors note. Anybody who has listened to sports radio in the last couple years is Painfully aware of this. Not doctor prescribed, but easily available. So it's ok for men to buy and ingest products frequently advertised on TV that "boost" testosterone? But a man transitioning to a woman taking estrogen is somehow so worse, doctor prescribed by the way. Not mel kiper selling it to me? So basically can a man have TOO much testosterone. Just curious?

Short answer is yes, but I'm not sure any standards exist when it comes to the ioc/pdga.

 

[Monocacy]

Discussion about athletes who transition from female to male reminded me of an article I read a few years ago about a swimmer at Harvard:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...b1cc88-190e-11e5-bd7f-4611a60dd8e5_story.html

 

[gingerandhoney]

What is the proper term to differentiate between these two:

A) A male who identifies as a woman but has not made any medical, physical changes.
B) A male who has made the medical/physical transformation to a woman.

I don't see how B could ever be accused of transitioning just to gain an advantage over other women in sports.

A would ONLY be allowed to play in gender-protected divisions (unless by body chemistry their testosterone levels are low enough - think for instance hermaphrodite, Difference in Sexual Development, hyperandrogenous, or karyotype people with male external features but female internal featured), B would be allowed as long as (either through testostereon blocking medication, or through orchiectomy) their testosterone values are low enough.

FYI:
male range = 15-35nmol/l
female range = (roughly) 1.5-3.5nmol/l
transgender threshold < 10nmol/l

FYI2: my value 0.4 average since starting medical transition, 19 months ago

 

[gingerandhoney]

Seems like a cluster. Read theses last few out of order so my first reaction was the 60m (indoor) and 800m would probably the MOST affected by testosterone. Different bonuses from it but the 800m might have the largest discrepancy in time between men and women world records which I would think is a bit of an indication of testosterone being a big bonus.

I can see how the specific ban must have looked but also understand where it may have come from.

A bit interested in this side of the whole discussion as elevated levels of hormones to even a playing field need to be treated the same if it is natural or artificial.

With a trans female to male transition i guess it would be testing at time of competition to see what is in the blood? Even though other athletes are tested year round? ?

That specific ban is ALWAYS going to be wrong, because then you'll be needing to update the rules as distances are new/retired.
By simply stating t levels always below X (and I'd be happier with 5nmol/l than 10nmol/l, because it is closer to vast majority of average women), you are 'always' up to date with your guidelines

 

[Arisugawa]

A would ONLY be allowed to play in gender-protected divisions (unless by body chemistry their testosterone levels are low enough - think for instance hermaphrodite, Difference in Sexual Development, hyperandrogenous, or karyotype people with male external features but female internal featured), B would be allowed as long as (either through testostereon blocking medication, or through orchiectomy) their testosterone values are low enough.

I'm sorry, but could you please clarify? Person A can only play gender protected divisions?

My understanding of the question was that person A was someone born physically male and has yet to undergo any medical transition, hormonal, surgical, or otherwise. I'm not sure what gender protected division this person could ONLY play. Playing the mixed (non-gender protected) divisions is always an option for any player regardless of gender.

Was this thought incomplete?

 

[gingerandhoney]

And also your average joe can buy P90X without a doctors note. Anybody who has listened to sports radio in the last couple years is Painfully aware of this. Not doctor prescribed, but easily available. So it's ok for men to buy and ingest products frequently advertised on TV that "boost" testosterone? But a man transitioning to a woman taking estrogen is somehow so worse, doctor prescribed by the way. Not mel kiper selling it to me? So basically can a man have TOO much testosterone. Just curious?

Just like transgender women would - the ones transitioning medically, not JUST socially - be taking testosterone blocking or surgical measures to thwart "male" chemistry and its effects,
transgender men would - in the same case - be taking tesotsterone to transition to a more male physique (facial hair, deepening of voice, fat > muscle change, and mental psychological differences too.

As testosterone IS a controlled substance, and in cisgender women (think 80's Eastern Block countries) it would a cause for bans because of positive testing.
I would expect a transman to have 'fairly normal' - probably a bit lower than mean value - testosterone values, and would therefore not be submitting positive tests, but yes, technically speaking, transmen are using doping.
There are NO specific regulations in place for transmen and what their T levels should be.
And transwomen are using anti-doping.

 

[gingerandhoney]

I'm sorry, but could you please clarify? Person A can only play gender protected divisions?

My understanding of the question was that person A was someone born physically male and has yet to undergo any medical transition, hormonal, surgical, or otherwise. I'm not sure what gender protected division this person could ONLY play. Playing the mixed (non-gender protected) divisions is always an option for any player regardless of gender.

Was this thought incomplete?

Yes, I got lost in subclauses.
A would only be allowed to play ingender-protected divisions provided their T levels are low enough (despite not medically altering it).
Most likely though, they'd be "stuck" playing in mixed divisions

 

[Jsmithey]

I'm sorry, but could you please clarify? Person A can only play gender protected divisions?

My understanding of the question was that person A was someone born physically male and has yet to undergo any medical transition, hormonal, surgical, or otherwise. I'm not sure what gender protected division this person could ONLY play. Playing the mixed (non-gender protected) divisions is always an option for any player regardless of gender.

Was this thought incomplete?

*A would only be allowed to play in mixed
*B would be allowed in gender protected provided they meet the current standard.

 

[Arisugawa]

Yes, I got lost in subclauses.
A would only be allowed to play ingender-protected divisions provided their T levels are low enough (despite not medically altering it).
Most likely though, they'd be "stuck" playing in mixed divisions

This is what I thought you meant. Obviously, if person A has any of the situations you referenced (hermaphrodite, difference in sexual development, hyperandrogenous, or karyotype people with male external features but female internal featured) that would cause the testosterone levels to fall within the acceptable range, the situation changes.

 

[gingerandhoney]

All that stuff about person A is not officially in the rules, so it COULD actually be considered 'not allowed', but the spirit of the guideline SHOULD allow for that.

 

[joshuajames]

Hey gingerandhoney, thanks for the disc trade at AM Worlds! Hope that Judge treats you well.

 

[gingerandhoney]

Hey gingerandhoney, thanks for the disc trade at AM Worlds! Hope that Judge treats you well.

Hi Joshua
I don't throw either the M3-x or the Judge, but I could make you happy with the trade, so I did. And I hope to make someone happy with the Judge. Thank you.

 

[BrotherDave]

How does the PDGA/IOC policy affect a trans woman that decides to de-transition after playing in female protected divisions?

 

[Jsmithey]

How does the PDGA/IOC policy affect a trans woman that decides to de-transition after playing in female protected divisions?

These occurrences are fairly rare and overlap that with the already minuscule percentage of trans people playing disc golf and it's near nil chances of that happening, but I would assume that they would keep any titles and ratings but once they reach the current maximum of 10nmol/l they would most certainly have to move back to mixed division or on the flip side as a trans man if they fell back below the limit I assume they would be allowed back in gender protected divisions. Personally I don't think this is a scenario we'll have to ever face in the Disc Golf world but those would be my assumptions based on current rulings.

 

[Nova P]

How does the PDGA/IOC policy affect a trans woman that decides to de-transition after playing in female protected divisions?

There's two ways for a transgender woman to be eligible to compete in the gender-protected divisions, one involves a period of hormone replacement therapy followed by an ongoing adherence to that therapy, and the other involves reassignment surgery (which invariably includes the removal of the gonads).

In the first case, let's assume the de-transitioning player (who has not had permanent surgery) also discontinues the use of hormone therapy, which is a logical assumption. They would no longer be eligible to participate in the gender-protected divisions, as is spelled out in the policy in section C, subsection 1, paragraphs C and E. Ongoing therapy is necessary to suppress and to continue to suppress the gonads, to stop them secreting testosterone. If the therapy is discontinued, the testes resume function (albeit possibly at a diminished level, but still probably too well to continue to compete).

Excerpt:

C. Transgender – Male to Female

Players who were assigned male gender at birth and are taking hormone replacement therapy and/or testosterone suppression medication related to gender transition are eligible to compete in a gender protected division at a PDGA event only if one of the following sets of criteria are met:

1. Transgender Hormone Therapy

A. The player has been taking continuous hormone therapy under medical supervision for a period of at least 12 months before competing in a gender protected division; and
B. The player's total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to the PDGA event, demonstrated by at least three blood tests throughout this time interval; and
C. The player's total testosterone level in serum must continue to remain below 10 nmol/L in the future. If the player ceases hormone treatment they are no longer eligible to compete in gender protected divisions and must inform the PDGA by submission of a completed PDGA Gender Reclassification Form to the PDGA Medical Committee; and
D. Submission by the player or their physician of the completed PDGA Gender Reclassification Form to the PDGA Medical Committee for evaluation; and
E. The player is required to inform the PDGA if hormone treatment is suspended.

(Italics added for emphasis.)

The latter case for eligibility (the surgery route) is spelled out in subsection 2. Someone who has surgical reassignment and then de-transitions may or may not necessarily become ineligible for the gender-protected division, as they no longer possess testes which secrete testosterone, so their levels of testosterone will not go up without some outside assistance.

If they "socially" de-transition, but remain chemically and anatomically female, it certainly appears that they would continue to be eligible for the gender-protected division, at least in terms of not enjoying the competitive advantages of having testosterone in the bloodstream, but as they would be presenting and living as male in every other aspect of their life, it seems unlikely that they would wish to continue playing in the company of women. It would be mad awkward, to say the least.

If they fully de-transition and seek testosterone replacement, (typically administered by injection into a smooth muscle), they would instantly lose their eligibility for the gender-protected division, as they are now essentially transitioning from female to male, and that's covered in section B.

Excerpt:

1. Players who were assigned female gender under the criteria detailed above and who are taking hormone treatments to increase testosterone levels are no longer eligible to compete in gender protected divisions.

Source: https://www.pdga.com/medical/gender-protected-divisions-eligibility-policy

 

[DiscFifty]

How does the PDGA/IOC policy affect a trans woman that decides to de-transition after playing in female protected divisions?

Trying to be sensitive here, but that particular person, I'm guessing, would have issues way more pressing in life than to worry about disc golf at that point.

 

[gingerandhoney]

Trying to be sensitive here, but that particular person, I'm guessing, would have issues way more pressing in life than to worry about disc golf at that point.

Correct. Especially if and when that person had used the surgical method of testosterone removal.
If that person were to de-transition, and actively quit taking estrogen, it would leave the body rudderless, so to speak.
No more female hormones added chemically, and no ability to create the make counterpart.

But I guess you, instead, refer to mental well-being, which is indeed way too sensitive an area to even go there.

 

[gingerandhoney]

How does the PDGA/IOC policy affect a trans woman that decides to de-transition after playing in female protected divisions?

If the person were to de-transition after surgery, they would remain eligible, unless they'd chemically add testosterone to their body.
If the person would de-transition by no longer taking testosterone blockers, the oerson would lose eligibility as soon as their testosterone levels, were above 10nmol/l again