Ledgestone 2022

[jeffmonty]

I was watching Ledgestone, and they were talking about the 5 or 6 aces that were made during the tournament. This got me wondering if the pros have an Ace pot they throw $10 or $20 into for these top-tier tournaments? Seems like something worth doing. Just curious, I've never heard it mentioned that I recall.

 

[krupicka]

There is an ace pot they could get in on. Not all do.

 

[kerq6c]

Two things. First the moon pretty much has direct line of sight with little if any clutter in the way (Drastically simplifying). Second they had the path and can utilize highly directional antennas (Think focused LASER versus a light bulb) on both sides of link. Modern cell coverage is greatly impacted by terrain changes and leafy (watery) vegetation. Focus from the carriers is to cover the majority of traffic. The majority of traffic is not usually in the woods, this leads to the sites generally not pointing in these areas. Also your end points being mobile has the impact of they have to use omnidirectional antenna to maintain connection. I could go into a lot more detail but this is a quick summary.

 

[txmxer]

Two things. First the moon pretty much has direct line of sight with little if any clutter in the way (Drastically simplifying). Second they had the path and can utilize highly directional antennas (Think focused LASER versus a light bulb) on both sides of link. Modern cell coverage is greatly impacted by terrain changes and leafy (watery) vegetation. Focus from the carriers is to cover the majority of traffic. The majority of traffic is not usually in the woods, this leads to the sites generally not pointing in these areas. Also your end points being mobile has the impact of they have to use omnidirectional antenna to maintain connection. I could go into a lot more detail but this is a quick summary.

I know there are rental cell towers, but probably a bit pricey and sounds like it might be difficult to insure coverage without multiple towers, upping the cost.

I was wondering if they couldn't put together a WIFI mesh network that would provide the coverage needed? Probably need a bunch of batteries as power supplies, but seems like it would be doable.

 

[TheOtherBill]

Would it be impossible to have volunteers/spectators run FB live feeds from their phones and post those in real-time somewhere?

 

[biscoe]

Would it be impossible to have volunteers/spectators run FB live feeds from their phones and post those in real-time somewhere?

If they had the cell signal to do that they would have sufficient cell signal for the cameras to function. They don't really need all that much and it can be spread out over multiple providers with the tech DGPT uses.

 

[biscoe]

I know there are rental cell towers, but probably a bit pricey and sounds like it might be difficult to insure coverage without multiple towers, upping the cost.

I was wondering if they couldn't put together a WIFI mesh network that would provide the coverage needed? Probably need a bunch of batteries as power supplies, but seems like it would be doable.

Rental towers are indeed pricey. Mesh networks may be the answer eventually in some locations. The demand on batteries is pretty minimal- does need decent internet to work to begin with though as it has been explained to me.

 

[txmxer]

Rental towers are indeed pricey. Mesh networks may be the answer eventually in some locations. The demand on batteries is pretty minimal- does need decent internet to work to begin with though as it has been explained to me.

Yes it would require solid internet, but maybe that's were Elon comes in. Or the use of a cell hotspot.

Point being I think it is something that can be overcome and the DGPT has made commitment to elevating their product so it makes sense they would make the investment.

 

[dehaas]

Taking a quick look online I see some equipment that is marketed as mesh networking for large farms. Still not sure how well something like that would work in the woods though, or how close you'd need the units to be reliable.

It's been over a decade since I've worked in wireless, I'm assuming the portable cell sites still need a wired back haul? Then you also run into the situation where everybody else's devices are competing for bandwidth on that portable cell site. Good luck telling paying spectators they've gotta put their phones on airplane mode.

 

[nothinbuttree]

Yes it would require solid internet, but maybe that's were Elon comes in. Or the use of a cell hotspot.

Point being I think it is something that can be overcome and the DGPT has made commitment to elevating their product so it makes sense they would make the investment.

Seems like if there are courses the power that be want to continue using, then DGN/DGPT could collaborate on some mobile equipment that could be used at different venues.

I think long term, not being able to live broadcast an entire half of a course is simply a no go. But I don't think the answer is to just not play that course on the pro tour. We need more Northwood Blacks and fewer golf courses.

 

[txmxer]

Taking a quick look online I see some equipment that is marketed as mesh networking for large farms. Still not sure how well something like that would work in the woods though, or how close you'd need the units to be reliable.

It's been over a decade since I've worked in wireless, I'm assuming the portable cell sites still need a wired back haul? Then you also run into the situation where everybody else's devices are competing for bandwidth on that portable cell site. Good luck telling paying spectators they've gotta put their phones on airplane mode.

Wifi has a much longer wavelength than cellular signal, so I would expect better penetration. But the antennas are much lower power, so more required.

I watched a Ted talk (and have stayed at a Holiday Inn) where the guy was discussing properly setup wifi networking for a convention center. The hardware/software does most of the heavy lifting these days if you know how to use it.

I don't know if you could set up a mobile cell tower as a private network and thus eliminate the fan traffic. You can definitely isolate a wifi network.

Question—since PDGA live is the main score card for these events, how do they deal with crap cell coverage?

 

[kerq6c]

Couple things to follow up on COW (Cell on Wheels) and COLT (Cell on Light Truck) are expensive. They require some form of backhaul (Prefer fiber but Microwave could work), integration into the network they will be broadcasting (Time and money for engineers in that network), and also importantly power (Generator, loud and some environmental concerns or a drop from the utility). Carriers that deploy these generally budget in the 10's of thousands of dollars per day to operate. Which I'm pretty sure blows the budget.
Wireless mesh networks require skill to set up optimally and have issues with noise and have bandwidth concerns. The power draw isn't a major area of concern for the most part. I can't put my finger on it but I'm willing to bet this would be more sub optimal than you would like. A single live video feed can squash capacity on a network really quick.

I don't know the solution that is affordable in the early stages and budget of DGN. Maybe a few years down the road they can afford one or someone will make an affordable solution.

 

[txmxer]

I wouldn't suggest I could call geek squad to set it up in a day.

It would require some amount trial and error to create function, but it can be done.

Interesting you mention noise/interference. Anything is possible, but the reason we are discussing this is it's an area with poor signal coverage. It might actually be great for wifi. No internet if everything devices clogging the air waves.

 

[kerq6c]

Wifi has a much longer wavelength than cellular signal, so I would expect better penetration. But the antennas are much lower power, so more required.

I watched a Ted talk (and have stayed at a Holiday Inn) where the guy was discussing properly setup wifi networking for a convention center. The hardware/software does most of the heavy lifting these days if you know how to use it.

I don't know if you could set up a mobile cell tower as a private network and thus eliminate the fan traffic. You can definitely isolate a wifi network.

Question—since PDGA live is the main score card for these events, how do they deal with crap cell coverage?

Wifi is generally 2.4GHz or 5GHz. Most carriers have their main channel in the 700-800MHz range. Lower frequency with a longer wavelength penetrates better than high frequency. So Carriers win out here. Antenna gain for most of the carriers are 15 dBd for 8' panels 13 for 6' panels. Best Wifi antenna I've seen is 9dBi. More gain is generally more range (Although gain is better discussed, IMHO, as directional energy). Power is almost always limited by the uplink side of the network rather than downlink, so I'm going to avoid that discussion.

DAS (Distributed Antenna Systems) are very complex. But when designed and set up well they have decent success.

There are ways of doing a private cell network but the costs are, once again, very prohibitive. This is not even talking about the group of people whose knowledge and experience you would need to make it happen.

Data connections do not require near the bandwidth that video does. Orders of magnitude from 10-100x more for a live video feed. IE much easier to deal with and the retransmissions don't cause near the end user issues.

 

[biscoe]

Yes it would require solid internet, but maybe that's were Elon comes in. Or the use of a cell hotspot.

Point being I think it is something that can be overcome and the DGPT has made commitment to elevating their product so it makes sense they would make the investment.

StarLink is indeed the solution on the horizon currently- they just don't have coverage everywhere yet. Hotspots don't have the oomph as of now, plus anywhere a hotspot would work the DGPT camera packs would function as well. They (DGPT) are working on various things.

 

[biscoe]

Couple things to follow up on COW (Cell on Wheels) and COLT (Cell on Light Truck) are expensive. They require some form of backhaul (Prefer fiber but Microwave could work), integration into the network they will be broadcasting (Time and money for engineers in that network), and also importantly power (Generator, loud and some environmental concerns or a drop from the utility). Carriers that deploy these generally budget in the 10's of thousands of dollars per day to operate. Which I'm pretty sure blows the budget.

Can confirm.

Wireless mesh networks require skill to set up optimally and have issues with noise and have bandwidth concerns. The power draw isn't a major area of concern for the most part. I can't put my finger on it but I'm willing to bet this would be more sub optimal than you would like. A single live video feed can squash capacity on a network really quick.

I don't know the solution that is affordable in the early stages and budget of DGN. Maybe a few years down the road they can afford one or someone will make an affordable solution.

You know way more about it than I do but this all aligns with what I have been told by various people.

 

[kerq6c]

To add another follow up. AWS is now going to allow private networks on CBRS GAA (3.5 GHz). https://aws.amazon.com/private5g/pricing/ So just for the networking and approval you are looking at $10k plus for a 60 day period. You still need backhaul to the radio unit which can be solved.

 

[biscoe]

Question—since PDGA live is the main score card for these events, how do they deal with crap cell coverage?

For PDGA Live Scoring you can get by with a signal at the beginning and the end of the round and not much of a signal at that. We have had no issues with it in various places where the signal strength is far too weak for video upload.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

If Heinold and his like would simply embrace the wondrous world of Harry Potter, rather than condemn it, they could simply use magic to stream every shot at Ledgestone.




By the way, PDGA is way behind the curve on acknowledging the existence of magic, and addressing its use (or misuse) in the rule book. Pretty sure Ken Climo used it extensively. And I swear I saw countless people chanting incantations when Conrad hit the shot in Utah.

Just sayin...
Magic. Cool in place of technology. But it needs to be prohibited as far as players and fans go. :|

 

[txmxer]

To add another follow up. AWS is now going to allow private networks on CBRS GAA (3.5 GHz). https://aws.amazon.com/private5g/pricing/ So just for the networking and approval you are looking at $10k plus for a 60 day period. You still need backhaul to the radio unit which can be solved.

Thank you for all the information.

As a general statement, watching Des Moines and seeing numerous video glitches due to signal issues, the DGPT is going to have to step up at some point to address these issues if live is the future.

Not a complaint, I know it's a work in progress, more an observation.