Ledgestone Analysis: Why do people not play proper divisions based player rating?

[BlazedOrangeHat]

with the recent opening of registration for the Ledgestone Insurance Open it's interesting seeing the ratings of the players in each division. i wonder why more people don't sign up for the division that they are suggested to play based on their rating? is it simple ignorance to the suggested player rating for each division? is it an inflated ego thinking they are better than they are? was it a mistake when signing up and accidentally clicking the wrong division? maybe something else?

As of 11:23am Pacific time, registration for the Ledgestone Insurance Open 2016...


OPEN - 120 registered players
78 players rated 970 or higher
38 players rated below 970
04 players not rated

ADVANCED - 109 registered players
03 players rated 970 or higher
27 players rated 935-969
77 players rated 934 or below
02 players not rated

INTERMEDIATE - 79 registered players
01 players rated 935 or higher
20 players rated 900-934
49 players rated 899 or below
09 players not rated

RECREATIONAL - 110 registered players
01 players rated 900 or higher
50 players rated 850-899
39 players rated 849 or lower
20 players not rated

NOVICE - 20 registered players
00 players rated 850 or higher
17 players rated 849 or below
03 players not rated



If players were to be shuffled based on their ratings...

**all unrated players i've given the assumption that they would be rated within the division they are signed up for. unrated players will STAY where they are signed up.

OPEN
of the 120 players...
82 players stay (78 properly rated + 4 unrated)
32 go to advanced
03 go to intermediate
03 go to recreational
00 go to novice
68% signed up for the correct division

AVANCED
of the 109 players...
29 players stay (27 properly rated + 2 unrated)
03 go to open
53 go to intermediate
20 go to recreational
04 go to novice
27% signed up for the correct division

INTERMEDIATE
of the 79 players...
29 players stay (20 properly rated + 9 unrated)
00 go to open
01 go to advanced
44 go to recreational
05 go to novice
37% signed up for the correct division

RECREATIONAL
of the 110 players...
70 players stay (50 properly rated + 20 unrated)
00 go to open
00 go to advanced
01 go to intermediate
39 go to novice
64% signed up for the correct division

NOVICE
of the 20 players...
20 players stay (17 properly rated + 3 unrated)
00 go to open
00 go to advanced
00 go to intermediate
00 go to recreational



Adjusted division totals...

OPEN - 85 (120 originally - 71% of original size)
82 stayed in open
03 came from advanced
00 came from intermediate
00 came from recreational
00 came from novice

ADVANCED - 62 (109 originally - 57% of original size)
32 came from open
29 stayed in advanced
01 came from intermediate
00 came from recreational
00 came from novice


INTERMEDIATE - 86 (79 originally - 109% of original size)
03 came from open
53 came from advanced
29 stayed in intermediate
01 came from recreational
00 came from novice

RECREATIONAL - 137 (110 originally - 125% of original size)
03 came from open
20 came from advanced
44 came from intermediate
70 stayed in recreational
00 came from novice

NOVICE - 20 (20 originally - 100% of original size)
00 came from open
00 came from advanced
00 came from intermediate
00 came from recreational
20 stayed in novice

 

[numbernine]

...there's no rating minimum for Open.

 

[BlazedOrangeHat]

...there's no rating minimum for Open.

...that's why this analysis is based on PDGA rating guidelines for each division.

here are the ratings guidelines from PDGA.com

 

[numbernine]

I'd bet that this happens more often than not in big tournaments.
People want to go and play in a giant event.

Bowling Green.
Glass Blown.
Am worlds.

Any place you'll find a lot of ams, you'll find dudes punching way out of their weight class.

 

[Future_Primitive]

And no maximum for Advanced. You can't force somebody out of Advanced for being over 970, maybe they want to keep their Am status and play Am Worlds?

My limited experience is that players playing their ratings varies greatly state to state. Here in Michigan most everybody plays their ratings. Out in Colorado I noticed a lot of players play a division or two above their rating. Have family & friends out West and I happen to check out their results in Colorado tourneys and that always jumped out at me.

Looks like plenty of spots available so that is not the issue like Worlds or GBO where some lower rated players had to play AM1 as it was the larger field and only one open. But last I checked Ledgestone was not maxed out so it is interesting to see what people sign up for with all options available.

 

[bwgort]

with the recent opening of registration for the Ledgestone Insurance Open it's interesting seeing the ratings of the players in each division. i wonder why more people don't sign up for the division that they are suggested to play based on their rating? is it simple ignorance to the suggested player rating for each division? is it an inflated ego thinking they are better than they are? was it a mistake when signing up and accidentally clicking the wrong division? maybe something else?

As of 11:23am Pacific time, registration for the Ledgestone Insurance Open 2016...


OPEN - 120 registered players
78 players rated 970 or higher
38 players rated below 970
04 players not rated

ADVANCED - 109 registered players
03 players rated 970 or higher
27 players rated 935-969
77 players rated 934 or below
02 players not rated

INTERMEDIATE - 79 registered players
01 players rated 935 or higher
20 players rated 900-934
49 players rated 899 or below
09 players not rated

RECREATIONAL - 110 registered players
01 players rated 900 or higher
50 players rated 850-899
39 players rated 849 or lower
20 players not rated

NOVICE - 20 registered players
00 players rated 850 or higher
17 players rated 849 or below
03 players not rated



If players were to be shuffled based on their ratings...

**all unrated players i've given the assumption that they would be rated within the division they are signed up for. unrated players will STAY where they are signed up.

OPEN
of the 120 players...
82 players stay (78 properly rated + 4 unrated)
32 go to advanced
03 go to intermediate
03 go to recreational
00 go to novice
68% signed up for the correct division

AVANCED
of the 109 players...
29 players stay (27 properly rated + 2 unrated)
03 go to open
53 go to intermediate
20 go to recreational
04 go to novice
27% signed up for the correct division

INTERMEDIATE
of the 79 players...
29 players stay (20 properly rated + 9 unrated)
00 go to open
01 go to advanced
44 go to recreational
05 go to novice
37% signed up for the correct division

RECREATIONAL
of the 110 players...
70 players stay (50 properly rated + 20 unrated)
00 go to open
00 go to advanced
01 go to intermediate
39 go to novice
64% signed up for the correct division

NOVICE
of the 20 players...
20 players stay (17 properly rated + 3 unrated)
00 go to open
00 go to advanced
00 go to intermediate
00 go to recreational



Adjusted division totals...

OPEN - 85 (120 originally - 71% of original size)
82 stayed in open
03 came from advanced
00 came from intermediate
00 came from recreational
00 came from novice

ADVANCED - 62 (109 originally - 57% of original size)
32 came from open
29 stayed in advanced
01 came from intermediate
00 came from recreational
00 came from novice


INTERMEDIATE - 86 (79 originally - 109% of original size)
03 came from open
53 came from advanced
29 stayed in intermediate
01 came from recreational
00 came from novice

RECREATIONAL - 137 (110 originally - 125% of original size)
03 came from open
20 came from advanced
44 came from intermediate
70 stayed in recreational
00 came from novice

NOVICE - 20 (20 originally - 100% of original size)
00 came from open
00 came from advanced
00 came from intermediate
00 came from recreational
20 stayed in novice

10 players cashed last year that were under 970. I would guess that said players don't agree with the PDGA's suggestion that they shouldn't play pro. From my own experience, I play open because I don't need or want any additional plastic.

 

[lyleoross]

So basically, only recreational and Pro players have a clue as to where they should be and even there, only a D average in their ability.

Very nice breakdown, it puts the lie to the notion that the ratings system is messed up. Players insist on playing where they don't belong, and are very likely to be frustrated.

Something else to point out, the bagger myth, only five players played below their rankings, three of them in advanced. Clearly bagging is less of a problem than a lack of reality.

 

[bwgort]

So basically, only recreational and Pro players have a clue as to where they should be and even there, only a D average in their ability.

Very nice breakdown, it puts the lie to the notion that the ratings system is messed up. Players insist on playing where they don't belong, and are very likely to be frustrated.

Something else to point out, the bagger myth, only five players played below their rankings, three of them in advanced. Clearly bagging is less of a problem than a lack of reality.

The list of registered players isn't how you determine whether the rating system is messed up. You sort the results by the rating of players to see who cash and that determines whether rating correlates to ability in this small sample size.

I think it's also wrong to assume that if someone is 968 they somehow have less business playing in the open division than someone rated 971. The difference between those players skills is not big enough to separate the players. The rating is used as a guideline to help players know what division to enter. It is not the end all be all determinant of your skill.

The rating simply defines your skill in the last year, relative only to the players you played against, controlled for outliers, and weighted double for the most recent events.

 

[AndyJB]

Yeah man, no one here in COplays their rating. I took 3rd in MA2 at a tournet last year rated 848...and was called (with intent and malice) a sandbagger and told to move up next time (jokes on them, I didnt)

So for a destination event like GBO or Ledgestone, you have people from regions like mine coming and playing what they normally would.

Another thing too is that people always say "playing up will make you better" While I disagree, if youre going to a big event with tons of people why not play up at least for the experience? Especially if you think you might not place in your reccomended division?

 

[bradharris]

I think I played my rating once. And that was in it briefly climbed above 935. When I was playing Int, I was rated for Rec. By the time my rating moved into Int range, I had already begun playing Adv.

 

[BlazedOrangeHat]

I think I played my rating once. And that was in it briefly climbed above 935. When I was playing Int, I was rated for Rec. By the time my rating moved into Int range, I had already begun playing Adv.

why? is it because you wanted a challenge? it's what everyone else in your region was doing? you didn't know the ratings guidelines? you wanted a certain division, but it was filled so you had to settle for something else? a different reason...?

 

[ru4por]

People play tournaments for different reasons. I play advanced GM with a rec rating. I do so for several reasons, one is the age. The general skill set of my age group seems to be somewhat universal. I also am a long time player, I am not always pleased with the experience level of many rec cards. While I am always happy to teach the game, it can be a distraction to my game. In bigger events, sometimes the courses may differ for divisions (Bowling Green), I may prefer the course collection in the division above my rating. The tees may be different for divisions, I may be low rated, but long tees might fit my big arm better. (sadly hypothetical). If playing a tournament and I am traveling with a few guys, I may play up to accommodate a ride to my rounds with my friends. Just a few of the reasons I could think of. -

 

[DanJon]

For this tournament, and others, people play up because of the course selection.

 

[bradharris]

why? is it because you wanted a challenge? it's what everyone else in your region was doing? you didn't know the ratings guidelines? you wanted a certain division, but it was filled so you had to settle for something else? a different reason...?

I'm fully aware of the guidelines and I choose to ignore them.

I find that I'm most competitive in Adv. In Int, I can have an off day and still be in the running. That feels wrong. In Adv, I have to be at my best to be competitive. If I'm off, I'm middle or back of the field.

I also really hate the idea of skill based divisions. I like playing in Adv because it is an open division with no skill or age protection.

I moved up after getting a few wins in Int that felt pretty meaningless.

For this tournament, and others, people play up because of the course selection.

Also this. I like play the toughest layout. Often, Adv or Open are the only divisions playing the hardest layout.

I've played Open in the Green Mountain Championship because Open played Fri-Sun while Adv only played Sat-Sun.

 

[tomdizzlefizzle]

Why doesn't mcbeast play in a proper division for his rating? He's 50 points higher then a 1000 rated so why is he allowed to sandbag in open?

 

[DougCrawford]

I've been playing about a year and a half- played one tournament at the beginning of last year that got me my current rating of 818. Fairly low compared to lots in this area.

My second tournament is tomorrow, I signed up for advanced. My main reason is because of something I picked up as a professional musician- surround yourself by those better than you if you want to improve.

I figure I will learn more by playing with people more experienced than me. It's in amateur, I'm not gonna win any money anyways.

But.... I went and practiced the course yesterday and threw my best round ever. Bogey free -12 from the short tees, according to DGCR's scorecard that's a 1027 round.

I guess my point is ratings aren't everything- it's all up to the player and what they want out of the tournament.

 

[SonicGuy]

why? is it because you wanted a challenge? it's what everyone else in your region was doing? you didn't know the ratings guidelines? you wanted a certain division, but it was filled so you had to settle for something else? a different reason...?

I cannot fathom why any self respecting adult would play for funny money. We are not twelve year olds at Chucky Cheeses hording tickets to redeem. Adults pay for things in cash money and if I ever win anything I want it in fungible currency.

Play open and pray to win something real.

 

[BlazedOrangeHat]

I cannot fathom why any self respecting adult would play for funny money. We are not twelve year olds at Chucky Cheeses hording tickets to redeem. Adults pay for things in cash money and if I ever win anything I want it in fungible currency.

Play open and pray to win something real.

let's take a look at last year's ledgestone insurance open. here are some quick facts:

- 217 total players in open
- 134 players rated 970 or higher
- 083 players rated 969 or lower

- 110 players cashed
- 010 players rated 969 or lower cashed
- 100 players rated 970 or higher cashed

- 74% of players rated 970 or higher cashed
- 12% of players rated 969 or lower cashed

here are the ten players at 969 or lower that cashed:

969 - $380
968 - $085
964 - $280
963 - $341
963 - $304
962 - $320
962 - $280
956 - $304
953 - $085
951 - $301


mean rating of players rated 969 or lower that cashed: 961.1
median rating of players rated 969 or lower that cashed: 962.5
mode rating of players rated 969 or lower that cashed is a tie between 963 and 962.

 

[Martin Dewgarita]

I could sign up for intermediate, but by the time the tourney rolls around I won't be rated low enough any more, I contemplated playing open, but decided on advanced, deciding that's where the best competition and best value would be had.

 

[ToddL]

1 - People like playing against better competition
2 - Higher divisions play the better/harder courses
3 - Social pressure (accusations of sandbagging)
4 - Pop psychologist here, but I don't think people like the names of the divisions. "I ain't no dang 'recreational' player! Screw that biz!" If they were strictly called MA1, MA2, and MA3 instead of Advanced, Intermediate, and Recreational, you might see fewer players play up.

just a few off the top of my head (and from reading the thread)