Ledgestone Analysis: Why do people not play proper divisions based player rating?

[DavidSauls]

"If you want to get better, play with better players" is a myth designed to get more people to sign up for advanced and open so that the prize pool grows larger with dead money. Just my opinion.

Partly, though it's a myth that exists in other sports as well. Sports where people aren't playing for each other's entry fees.

There might be something to playing casual rounds with better players hastening your improvement. At least you have the chance to observe, discuss, and learn. Tournaments, tenuous at best, for all the reasons already given, and most particularly because it's only the first round where you're likely to play with better players.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Playing basketball everyday against guys who were better players just made me work harder.

Disc golf is really no different IMO. My buddies used to school me. I figured **** out and now they are like n00bs. Playing with them only took me so far. Seeing pros and video of unique shots etc helps with experience and understanding. Some people just havent experienced enough yet think they understand well. Big problem with sports/hobbies etc..

 

[sillybizz]

Ego, social pressure, and other reasons are why some people 'play up' as well.

 

[DavidSauls]

Playing basketball everyday against guys who were better players just made me work harder.

Disc golf is really no different IMO. My buddies used to school me. I figured **** out and now they are like n00bs. Playing with them only took me so far. Seeing pros and video of unique shots etc helps with experience and understanding. Some people just havent experienced enough yet think they understand well. Big problem with sports/hobbies etc..

There's a big difference in sports than involve defense.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Not when it comes to personal achievement. Gotta do work even more so if you dont have the natural skillz playaaaa!

 

[chris deitzel]

Moved to Pro when I reached 921. I was placing in the top 10 in every advanced tournament I played 98-01, so I moved up.

I got my butt kicked for a few years not cashing at all.

Then, I got better. I have now won 11 PDGA events, never with a rating higher than a 980, I stayed around 970 for 7 years. Always made more money playing open then I lost. And I got to play with Paul McBeth, Nikko, Schick, Cam Todd, Moser, Geoff Bennett, Wysocki, Barsby, Gurthie, Climo, McCray andthe list goes on.

I am so glad I tried playing up against better players, even though it was discouraging for a few years.

I think everyone should move to PRO once they hit 955.

 

[allinpflop]

Moved to Pro when I reached 921. I was placing in the top 10 in every advanced tournament I played 98-01, so I moved up.

I got my butt kicked for a few years not cashing at all.

Then, I got better. I have now won 11 PDGA events, never with a rating higher than a 980, I stayed around 970 for 7 years. Always made more money playing open then I lost. And I got to play with Paul McBeth, Nikko, Schick, Cam Todd, Moser, Geoff Bennett, Wysocki, Barsby, Gurthie, Climo, McCray andthe list goes on.

I am so glad I tried playing up against better players, even though it was discouraging for a few years.

I think everyone should move to PRO once they hit 955.

I don't think anyone should have to move up unless they want to....and I could care less what division someone signs up for.....

 

[tdschrock1]

I think everyone should move to PRO once they hit 955.

I think I agree with you, but could you day more about how you arrived at 955

 

[chris deitzel]

950-960 is about the level of players who start cashing in open. At that level, you have a chance to shoot a really hot weekend and place near the top of the field.

Seems like that's around the number when people can actually compete in the open division. While they may not win, they will be competitive.

If all 955 and above moved up, we'd have a huge pro tour!!!


I could care less what division people play for, but you can't get better playing with people that are not better than you.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Players with ratings over 955 up to around 1020 are essentially Ams playing for cash. Even above 1020, maybe half truly produce enough net income to live as "pros". The Open winner in league or weekend events has no more prestige as a competitor than first in any other division UNLESS the top rated player in the world is in that open field. All other winners are just excellent "strivers".

 

[DavidSauls]

I could care less what division people play for, but you can't get better playing with people that are not better than you.

Which is funny, because every time people whine about an Am rated 990 and staying Am, it's a perfect example of a player improving while not playing with people better than him.

Meanwhile, I've seen plenty of people make the move to pro and plateau. Playing with better players doesn't make them better.

The evidence on the other side---from people who moved up, and kept improving---is unconvincing. They may very well have kept improving had they not moved up.

Way down the ladder, I've spent most of my 20 years of disc golf playing in divisions above my skill level---because I wanted to---and it didn't make me a better player.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Only practice makes you better. Playing with better players might have some benefit if you actually practice what you observe in their game. You can also observe better players on the Internet and it will be just as effective for learning... as long as you practice what you learn. There are no stats that indicate you play better or worse regardless of the ratings of players in your group unless some are negatively disruptive.

 

[allinpflop]

950-960 is about the level of players who start cashing in open. At that level, you have a chance to shoot a really hot weekend and place near the top of the field.

Seems like that's around the number when people can actually compete in the open division. While they may not win, they will be competitive.

If all 955 and above moved up, we'd have a huge pro tour!!!


I could care less what division people play for, but you can't get better playing with people that are not better than you.

I think now you have lots and lots of players who really have neither the time, desire, or natural ability to play open and just enjoy tournaments and competing even at a lower level. That's why having all of these am divisions is a good thing....

 

[DavidSauls]

Only practice makes you better. Playing with better players might have some benefit if you actually practice what you observe in their game. You can also observe better players on the Internet and it will be just as effective for learning... as long as you practice what you learn. There are no stats that indicate you play better or worse regardless of the ratings of players in your group unless some are negatively disruptive.

I believe the people you play with outside of tournaments matter much more that those you play with in tournaments.

Especially since, no matter what division you play in tournaments, you generally only play the first round with players of significantly different skill. After that, you're grouped with players who just shot the same as you did.

 

[chris deitzel]

Exactly David. But I bet that 990 player probably plays with some good players at his home course.


And the whole player rating thing destroyed the PDGA.

No longer do people play for fun or think they are better than they really are.

And everyone complains to the TD within hours, where are the scores, I want to see my ratings. Then complain that the ratings aren't the same as the week the pros played the same layout.

Then they bitch on here about ratings.

I so wish that the system was never invented.

Play where you want.

While Chuck I agree, you need to play with better players to understand that you aren't that good and there are things you can improve. I wasn't suggesting that playing with better players makes you better, but that watching better players during PDGA and fun rounds is how you get better. Meaning playing with better players.

 

[chris deitzel]

Eric I agree that having all of these divisions can be a good thing.

 

[AndyJB]

Look, neither is the "right" answer. Some things work for some people, not for others. And those reasons are their own. Period.

For Ledgestone, like I posted earlier, I'd have no chance of placing high in MA2, so I might sign up for MA1. More competitive but with less presssure, more points to qualify for Am Worlds...a host of reasons, really.

Trying to pin it down to one or even three significant factors is futile.

 

[chris deitzel]

Play where you are having fun. That's all that matters.

 

[LukeButch]

...that's why this analysis is based on PDGA rating guidelines for each division.

here are the ratings guidelines from PDGA.com

The best part about OPEN is that anyone can play. just picked up a disc and want to try and beat the worlds best? you can enter


I am a fan of tiered entry to tournaments but also like that anyone can play

 

[TimSyl]

I'm kind of a "fence rider" on this subject.

Let's face it, if open was the only division offered, PDGA tournies would have fewer participants and someone would create another organization for the "rest of us".

In the rest of my athletic life, I was always against handicapped competition. Stopped playing in handicapped ball golf leagues when beating someone by 6 in actual score but losing because I had to GIVE him 8 seemed silly to me. Or, losing to someone in bowling because their 150 + 40 pin handicap beat my 188 or whatever. I understand without the "handicaps", participation would be much lower.

Having divisions in disc enables more people to have a chance. You can tell me to play open and "get better" (as I've told countless people in other sports), but I started playing at 48 and have played for 8 years. My chances of getting good enough to compete in Open are basically nil.