lostDoughnut Progression

[BraceDisgrace]

im not sure i follow? it very well could be. i havnt worked on my upper body in awhile. i did my off arm like one day but i have been really grinding on the leg work

Sorry to confuse! The question was for SW22 regarding his stand-still video.

 

[lostDoughnut]

video above shows my routine of trying to find the tension between my legs. i could get deeper into the rear leg and i cant wait to try again. once i discovered this tension i really wanted to hone in on it and figure it out (hoping that its not leading me in a wrong direction)

 

[lostDoughnut]

Sorry to confuse! The question was for SW22 regarding his stand-still video.

no worries!

 

[sidewinder22]

Somewhat better. Need to fix your arm/disc rotating backwards into power pocket and swinging downward with disc nose up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aADjcR_ZtUw&t=340s
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134415

 

[sidewinder22]

Just curious - Is the position of the disc (in your stand-still video), on your torso in the power pocket relative to your dimensions/mobility? It looks to be quite a bit lower than the average thrower.

The biggest power zone is right thru your center of gravity.
Drew Gibson - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SspdhyX516E&t=3m38s

David Wiggins Jr.

 

[BraceDisgrace]

The biggest power zone is right thru your center of gravity.

That might very well be the case, but there are surely more details that factor in to any individual form and their performance, achieving sufficient power with regards to their physical configuration (length of the humerus, shoulder mobility etc.)

And what about these guys?

Drew Gibson - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SspdhyX516E&t=3m38s

Drew Gibson is a master of disc golf and has amazing form. However, his advice where he uses breaking down a door as analogous to the backhand is something I personally feel is inadequate at best and just misleading at worst. I've heard a few pro's use this line before, like Eagle McMahon.

If you were to break down a door using your elbow (a scenario that people are supposed to relate to?), you would follow through with the elbow and getting the hit with it. I suppose it's a variation of the battering ram rather than a form cue.

David Wiggins Jr.

Is that a fair comparison though? David has crazy medial rotation in his right shoulder, has his elbow out from his torso and is also leaning over more.

When You are raising the battering ram here to pec-level, what is the purpose of the move from there? I figured it was to demonstrate that you would get less leverage/power but that doesn't seem to be the message.

 

[sidewinder22]

That might very well be the case, but there are surely more details that factor in to any individual form and their performance, achieving sufficient power with regards to their physical configuration (length of the humerus, shoulder mobility etc.)

And what about these guys?

Drew Gibson is a master of disc golf and has amazing form. However, his advice where he uses breaking down a door as analogous to the backhand is something I personally feel is inadequate at best and just misleading at worst. I've heard a few pro's use this line before, like Eagle McMahon.

If you were to break down a door using your elbow (a scenario that people are supposed to relate to?), you would follow through with the elbow and getting the hit with it. I suppose it's a variation of the battering ram rather than a form cue.



Is that a fair comparison though? David has crazy medial rotation in his right shoulder, has his elbow out from his torso and is also leaning over more.
View attachment 76788

When You are raising the battering ram here to pec-level, what is the purpose of the move from there? I figured it was to demonstrate that you would get less leverage/power but that doesn't seem to be the message.

Wiggins camera angle is more front on and throwing on more hyzer.

The battering ram level change is changing the arm slot, it's just showing there are different ways to use the ram or throw and feel which one works best for you.

The swing plane will change with the type of shot and balance, here's Drew, Simon, Paul, and James on a "stock or flat" distance throw - all pretty similar and swinging right thru their CoG.

 

[BraceDisgrace]

Wiggins camera angle is more front on and throwing on more hyzer.

That's fair. I think now upon re-watching the clip that you are throwing slightly uphill, possibly affecting the angle. In the OLD video your disc is higher in a more typical power pocket.

Please note that I'm not trying to "call you out" or anything like that, I'm genuinely curious and quite possibly obsessed about form and biomechanics. Think I need to rest that part of my brain/game for a while, just need to sort some things out first..

The battering ram level change is changing the arm slot, it's just showing there are different ways to use the ram or throw and feel which one works best for you.

I see, thanks!

The swing plane will change with the type of shot and balance, here's Drew, Simon, Paul, and James on a "stock or flat" distance throw - all pretty similar and swinging right thru their CoG.

I would argue that it's still a bit higher up their respective torsos, except for Paul. But does he really throw like that anymore? I can't really find a more recent example of that low power pocket in his throws. No matter, I see your point though.


Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions and sorry lostDoughtnut that I'm hi-jacking your thread!

 

[Brychanus]

We can defer & bump this to a general thread, but this is loosely on-topic I think.

Still frames are always tricky due to camera angle & exactly swing lines. The swing path for most high-level form swings quite a bit like the Olympic Hammer relative to/through the center of gravity at some point in the path, usually close to where the disc is crossing the body's vertical midline. That's part of why if you swing a hammer wide or throw one horizontally, your body will settle into postures similar to a high-power DG backhand. As a coaching cue, the weight shift/center of gravity-relative way of framing swing development is very effective for many people because it teaches those postures & mechanics.

There's some exact positional/path variation & I would speculate that the discs being light weight might give people some leeway in their swings (and of course, it's still always worth wondering what in high-level form could be tweaked for one gain or another).

McBeth's swing path is an interesting example and maybe slight exception in recent years; I also noticed that he has a relatively high swing path on many shots (e.g., in this Gatekeeper montage from last year). Whether that's strictly related to his anatomy (he's famously got long hands and arms) or his "body English" phase of form or something else, I'd be interested to know. However, he still does have all the big things you'd expect to see in his shots. With respect to the swing path, notice that the elbow path swings below the wrist across his body (e.g., closer to the "elbow down the door position at that point in the swing; notice also that Heimburg does something similar) but prior to the hit. So McBeth still ends up in a very high-leverage posture by the end of the swing. But I don't think I'd start anyone with the advice to emulate it exactly since a lot can go wrong mechanically before and during that part of the swing, and it's notable that Mcbeth started with a different (and freaking crushing) free-wheeling swing. I'd love to hear if McBeth himself has ever talked about it.

 

[SocraDeez]

The biggest power zone is right thru your center of gravity.

That might very well be the case, but there are surely more details that factor in to any individual form and their performance, achieving sufficient power with regards to their physical configuration (length of the humerus, shoulder mobility etc.)

Surely, there are more details, but I've found big concept reference points like "the biggest power zone is right thru your center of gravity" to be the most helpful.

For example, here's a tangent of advice: instead of "across my body at a certain height", try "into my center of gravity and then away from my center of gravity". Momentum feel between the two can be much different. If you know what you're looking for, I guess.

Think about it kind of like a gravitational assist/slingshot or an Oberth maneuver (as depicted in the, frankly somewhat disappointing, Nolan flick Interstellar), in which your disc is the small, in-need-of-energy object in space and your very own CoG is the Titanic planet.

So, the more important thing might be swinging the disc close into your body/CoG (so that you can more powerfully bounce it back out away from the CoG) vs. the height it comes across the torso at. It's easiest to get a feel for the difference between across and into/away from by (a) swinging your arm w/o a disc/anything that it's actively gripping, and (b) swinging something heavy. Into your center. Away from your center.

Gravity assist/ slingshot references:

https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/basics/primer

http://symbolaris.com/course/fcps16/projects/amoran.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberth_effect

 

[sidewinder22]

Inertial Confrontation.

 

[lostDoughnut]

For example, here's a tangent of advice: instead of "across my body at a certain height", try "into my center of gravity and then away from my center of gravity". Momentum feel between the two can be much different. If you know what you're looking for, I guess.

thats a good quote. stuff like that i like to add into my notes on my phone for quick reference when practicing. ill prob condense it down too 'disc cog' :hfive:

 

[lostDoughnut]

Somewhat better. Need to fix your arm/disc rotating backwards into power pocket and swinging downward with disc nose up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aADjcR_ZtUw&t=340s
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134415

what confused me before when watching the part about antti was that he starts out like below


but then he flips the disc upside down and from my untrained eye he then looks like in a similiar position to myself (if i bent over with my spine and extended my arm then i feel itd be similiar). im trying to understand whats going on (i think he is doing the incorrect movement, i know im missing something)

 

[BraceDisgrace]

Surely, there are more details, but I've found big concept reference points like "the biggest power zone is right thru your center of gravity" to be the most helpful.

I totally agree. My question was more specific to that particular example and I was more concerned with the positioning of the humerus relative to the forearm and what that might inhibit in terms of mobility if you keep moving the disc lower.

Think about it kind of like a gravitational assist/slingshot or an Oberth maneuver (as depicted in the, frankly somewhat disappointing, Nolan flick Interstellar), in which your disc is the small, in-need-of-energy object in space and your very own CoG is the Titanic planet.

I didn't expect astrophysics going in to this discussion but I love it! I don't agree that Interstellar was disappointing though, but to each their own. I think this thought experiment can help people figure out the acceleration by thinking about the slingshot effect.

But I think a more fair and representative explanation to use here is the conservation of angular momentum, since our bodies don't posess the gravitational pull of entire planets (hopefully).

 

[Brychanus]

what confused me before when watching the part about antti was that he starts out like below

but then he flips the disc upside down and from my untrained eye he then looks like in a similiar position to myself (if i bent over with my spine and extended my arm then i feel itd be similiar). im trying to understand whats going on (i think he is doing the incorrect movement, i know im missing something)

I used to get really confused by this and it took me a couple months to fix. If you watch the real time vid, he does have that extreme supination at the top of his backswing. But he pronates as he exits the backswing and heads into the pocket.

Simon starts more pronated at the top of his backswing, but pronates even more exiting his backswing.

As I understand it, the fundamental is to have the forearm pronating out of the peak of the backswing regardless of the initial angle of the disc. The exact starting angle of the disc and degree of rotation is secondary to that fundamental. People have discussed advantages of different styles here, but you have to get that pronation out of the backswing first (this mechanic also sets up shoulder going into internal rotation heading into the pocket, which is higher leverage/easier on the shoulder).

In your recent standstill vid I think you are supinating a bit as you exit the peak of the backswing, rather than starting in a supinated position at the peak of the backswing and pronating out of it.

 

[sidewinder22]

what confused me before when watching the part about antti was that he starts out like below
View attachment 76797

but then he flips the disc upside down and from my untrained eye he then looks like in a similiar position to myself (if i bent over with my spine and extended my arm then i feel itd be similiar). im trying to understand whats going on (i think he is doing the incorrect movement, i know im missing something)

View attachment 76798

Look at the top right 2 or 3 pics, he is rotating the arm/disc wing down into the power pocket similar to the left top pic going into backswing.

 

[SocraDeez]

I didn't expect astrophysics going in to this discussion but I love it! I don't agree that Interstellar was disappointing though, but to each their own. I think this thought experiment can help people figure out the acceleration by thinking about the slingshot effect.

But I think a more fair and representative explanation to use here is the conservation of angular momentum

Not quite.

The significance of getting the disc close to your CoG is not just re: the figure skater retracting their appendages Doc Ock style to increase the rate of body spin. Sure, don't let your left/off arm flail around and drag down your RPMs.

The point of my metaphor: It's a bounce. The closer it gets to your CoG/center of momentum without crashing into it, the more violent the ejection away, out from your CoG. When you get it, the momentum feel is very different.

When you exaggerate it: It feels almost like a straight line force bringing the disc into your center with your back (relatively) toward the target as if the disc were going to move right through you toward the target. There's a distinct pause sensation/ ("floating arm"?) and then the redirection outward away from your CoG feels super heavy momentum wise. The redirection, similar to the straight line force bringing the disc in, also feels like a straight line force shooting straight out of your center.

It never feels like your pulling something across your body. Into your center, so that you can bounce it back out. I'd let the pull through height relative to your torso work itself out after you've figured out the bounce. Just your friendly neighborhood forum-man.

 

[lostDoughnut]

There's a distinct pause sensation/ ("floating arm"?) and then the redirection outward away from your CoG feels super heavy momentum wise. The redirection, similar to the straight line force bringing the disc in, also feels like a straight line force shooting straight out of your center.

when i was first practicing with putters (6/06/2021). i remember what synced with me was the way i could get my body to feel this heavy momentum was to think 'pull the disc into my armpit'. that thought was an initial thought before i posted on this forum so its a very initial/rudimentary thought. cant wait to practice the upper body again

 

[lostDoughnut]

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134415

ok, im feeling the swing in my apt and i think im feeling whats going on. that swing path is starting to make sense in how that works.

my issue was that i was keeping my arm limp the entire time. when (hopefully this is somewhat accurate) i need to keep slight tension on my arm. i need to keep the slight tension to have the disc plate above my wrist and keep that tension as if i do when the disc comes out of the power pocket/hit then the tension will release (like the pickle jar lid coming off motion) and my forearm will go down

 

[lostDoughnut]

ive been introducing slack into my arm and that's been hindering movement. i think thats been an issue for everything i learn. i read that muscles need to be loose and during practice i think of staying loose and actually i create slack so when i try to do a movement some muscles are in the right position and others are not. maybe the term that works best for me is 'loose with slight/very slight tension'