Making the mando and being behind it

[txmxer]

BTW. Your image is correct if the line represents the actual thickness of the line laid down by the designer or if no physical line, the thickness of the object that is the Mandatory. If the Mando object thickness is that of your dot, your drawing is incorrect.

A couple of points--they are using the term plane, so that's two dimensional. Krupicka said earlier the mando orientation should be marked by the TD, which is likely to be string.

By default, since I drew the line on the example, that IS the thickness of the mando in the example, i.e., it was intentional.

With regard to route options based on where the disc lies and how it gets to it's lie, BillFleming has further clarified the question we are trying to resolve.

 

[roblee]

My interpretation is that your solutions for #2-orange (crossed plane once) and #6-black (crossed plane twice) are contrary to what Krupicka has said so far. Also, he indicated that the plane is indeed only 2 dimensional and mandos must be marked accordingly. We have varied ideas so like he said-I'm standing by.

 

[BillFleming]

Rules Dudes....I really like the rules videos you have on YouTube (PDGA channel). I watched them, but especially the one on mandatory. But still not clear is what do you do when the disc is on the line and never fully entered the restricted area....or if your lie would cause the disc to enter the restricted area during the throw.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Rules Dudes....I really like the rules videos you have on YouTube (PDGA channel). I watched them, but especially the one on mandatory. But still not clear is what do you do when the disc is on the line and never fully entered the restricted area....or if your lie would cause the disc to enter the restricted area during the throw.

I agree. The RC is working on it. My suggestion is to simply make a disc touching or on the line missing the mando regardless which way the disc arrived there. In other words, if you break the virtual plane of glass, you missed it. If your disc lands close to the missed mando line without ever crossing it, allow players to mark up to a meter from the line on the line of play even if it means going toward the target when landing beyond the line. With the new line of play rule that disregards mandos, the meter might give the player a somewhat better line if landing near the mando object without missing it (minor bonus).

Note that at least on the Mando vid, the verbal conversion subtitle text had some errors in a few spots. Not sure if that's correctable in the video or if videos must live with the YouTube verbal conversion to text.

 

[peabody]

How about "The disc is not in play until it is released"?

 

[Steve West]

How about "The disc is not in play until it is released"?

So restricted planes would becomes Holtzman shields?

 

[dndelli]

The tee sign says the mando is between the poles. But we still have people who ignore tee signs and throw wherever they want....mainly in casual play - but that's a different matter.

The issue might be the confusion caused by the implementation of these mandos? Given my understanding of mandos, I would assume to prevent throwing over the road, the left side image I am posting below would suffice. However, given the way it seems to be described here, I would interpret the left side image as technically being okay. Again this is based off my understanding of the hole and of mandos.

 

[peabody]

So restricted planes would becomes Holtzman shields?

A quick google tells me this is a Dune reference. Never saw the movie, never read the book( started to but lost interest).
Reachbacks can break any plane as long as the disc release is inbounds.

 

[BillFleming]

The issue might be the confusion caused by the implementation of these mandos? Given my understanding of mandos, I would assume to prevent throwing over the road, the left side image I am posting below would suffice. However, given the way it seems to be described here, I would interpret the left side image as technically being okay. Again this is based off my understanding of the hole and of mandos.

Not really any confusion. We actually have had casual players say they don't care about the mando and are "taking the shortcut". Most players, especially in tournaments, understand the reason for the mandos and how they are set up.

 

[txmxer]

How about "The disc is not in play until it is released"?

Don't think that works. A disc that ends up on the line would be a problem.

If it comes from the tee side, you are expected to throw the mando. If it came from the pin side, but the exact same finish, you can throw at the pin?

Seems to me that the only consistent result is, if it touches the mando plane, it's a fail and penalty stroke, throw from the drop zone.

I don't think that was the intent. It may be the only option.

 

[peabody]

, throw from the drop zone. It may be the only option.

Less confusing is always best.


And maybe better designed holes.

 

[dndelli]

Less confusing is always best.


And maybe better designed holes.

I wonder how this change will retroactively affect already designed holes. I've seen a few J/U shaped holes where the metaphorical line would possibly need to be "redefined".

 

[Cgkdisc]

I wonder how this change will retroactively affect already designed holes. I've seen a few J/U shaped holes where the metaphorical line would possibly need to be "redefined".

Anyone who designed a hole like that has presumably figured out they needed to mark their Missed Mando Line so it passed between the tee and the basket to prevent short cuts.

 

[txmxer]

We are working on that clarification.

Any progress on this?

 

[krupicka]

Any progress on this?

It is in process. Hopefully soon. (There has been a lot of time spent on this over the last two weeks).

 

[BillFleming]

It is in process. Hopefully soon. (There has been a lot of time spent on this over the last two weeks).

Awesome! I was a volunteer at a recent A-tier and discussed this with several players and the TD. There wasn't any consensus on how to handle the situation that we've discussed ("making" the mando, having the disc roll back towards the restricted area and, due to the backswing, having the subsequent throw enter the restricted area). There was a very good chance of this happening during the tournament and luckily it didn't.

For hole 1, there was a triple mando. Shortly past the left leg of the mando, there is a tree. Several players had their disc hit the tree and bounce or roll back. Fortunately, none of the bounce/roll backs entered the restricted area, nor did they leave the player in a spot where the next throw would enter the restricted area. But it could have happened.

The TD's discussed moving the triple mando so that it would be non-issue, but they really don't have much room to play with.

 

[Nazanne]

This exact scenario happened to me in a casual round yesterday. I made the mando and then hit a tree and the disc bounced back to just barely (a couple inches) in front of what I interpreted to be the mando line extending from the middle of the tree (the widest part). I played it by setting my mini and not worrying about where my backswing went with respect to the mando.

 

[BillFleming]

This exact scenario happened to me in a casual round yesterday. I made the mando and then hit a tree and the disc bounced back to just barely (a couple inches) in front of what I interpreted to be the mando line extending from the middle of the tree (the widest part). I played it by setting my mini and not worrying about where my backswing went with respect to the mando.

Unfortunately, by the rule...if your disc entered the restricted area during your throw (which includes the propulsion of the disc while it is in your hand) then you should have taken a penalty. Just "not worrying about where [the] backswing went" doesn't make it legal. That's why we are waiting for the clarification of the rule.

802.01.a A throw is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position.

Oxford dictionary: Propulsion: The act of driving or pushing forward

So, when your backswing has completed and the disc is moving forward, it is a throw. If it enters the restricted area...it's a penalty and go to the drop zone or the previous lie....which is the spot you are at.

 

[roblee]

Unfortunately, by the rule...if your disc entered the restricted area during your throw (which includes the propulsion of the disc while it is in your hand) then you should have taken a penalty.

You have mentioned this several times before and it is an interesting interpretation. I don't think there is a rule where the motion of the disc before release can be penalized so this would be a new scenario. Currently, I don't think a "backswing plane break" is a penalty and I'm really interested in what the RC says.

 

[txmxer]

You have mentioned this several times before and it is an interesting interpretation. I don't think there is a rule where the motion of the disc before release can be penalized so this would be a new scenario. Currently, I don't think a "backswing plane break" is a penalty and I'm really interested in what the RC says.

I think the issue is the spirit of the rule AND the issue that the exact same end point (lie) could require different throws.