Making the mando and being behind it

[BogeyNoMore]

Really haven't been following this thread, so I apologize if it's been brought up already, but this seems like it could be relevant in terms of dealing with mandos.

Effective as of Jan. 1, 2022, the PGDA changed the rule for defining the Line of Play, as it pertains to mandos.

https://www.pdga.com/news/disc-golf-rules-school-episode-3-marking-your-lie

Previously, the LOP was defined by the disc and the mando, not by the disc and the basket.

Now, it's defined by the disc and the basket, regardless where the mando is.

 

[txmxer]

Really haven't been following this thread, so I apologize if it's been brought up already, but this seems like it could be relevant in terms of dealing with mandos.

Saw this in the rules thread. I agree this is relevant as well. Took me a second to see it.

 

[biscoe]

Unfortunately, by the rule...if your disc entered the restricted area during your throw (which includes the propulsion of the disc while it is in your hand) then you should have taken a penalty. Just "not worrying about where [the] backswing went" doesn't make it legal. That's why we are waiting for the clarification of the rule.

802.01.a A throw is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position.

Oxford dictionary: Propulsion: The act of driving or pushing forward

So, when your backswing has completed and the disc is moving forward, it is a throw. If it enters the restricted area...it's a penalty and go to the drop zone or the previous lie....which is the spot you are at.

There are 3 conditions (propulsion,release, and intent) for the movement of the disc to be defined as a throw. Until they all occur there is no throw. What occurs prior to release is thereby irrelevant.

 

[txmxer]

There are 3 conditions (propulsion,release, and intent) for the movement of the disc to be defined as a throw. Until they all occur there is no throw. What occurs prior to release is thereby irrelevant.

Completely true.

But that still leaves a disc that ends up on the mando line may have two different routes to follow depending on how it got there.

 

[BillFleming]

You have mentioned this several times before and it is an interesting interpretation. I don't think there is a rule where the motion of the disc before release can be penalized so this would be a new scenario. Currently, I don't think a "backswing plane break" is a penalty and I'm really interested in what the RC says.

The thing is that the new mando rules says if the throw causes the disc to fully enter the restricted area and the definition of a throw includes the movement before release. Before, the rule was simpler as it was based on where the disc came to rest. I'm really looking forward to how they clarify this rule.

 

[BillFleming]

There are 3 conditions (propulsion,release, and intent) for the movement of the disc to be defined as a throw. Until they all occur there is no throw. What occurs prior to release is thereby irrelevant.

Where in rule 802.01.a, which defines a throw does it say that intent is part of the throw? And where does it say that what happens prior to the release doesn't matter?

A throw is comprised of two parts....the propulsion of the disc AND the release of the disc.

A practice swing doesn't count since you aren't changing its position...by the rule.

 

[peabody]

I still say the disc is not in play until it's released.

 

[robdeforge]

Where in rule 802.01.a, which defines a throw does it say that intent is part of the throw? And where does it say that what happens prior to the release doesn't matter?

https://www.pdga.com/faq/throw#t5541n237716

QA-THR-1: My throwing hand bumped a tree branch during my backswing, knocking the disc to the ground, and the disc rolled forward of my lie. Was that a throw?
No. A throw begins when the disc is moving forward in the intended direction. A disc dropped or knocked out before or during a backswing does not count as a throw.

 

[BillFleming]

https://www.pdga.com/faq/throw#t5541n237716

Exactly....the FORWARD momentum of the disc is a throw. That's what I've been saying. Let me try and clarify.

Your stance is close to the line of the mando. Your backswing enters the restricted space from one direction (not a violation). Now your disc is on the other side of the plane of the restricted space. Then your arm and disc start to go FORWARD and again "breaks" the plane of the restricted area. At that point it is a violation. Per the rules, the direction that the disc enters the restricted area does not matter. So going backwards (backswing) doesn't violate the mando because it is a backswing, however, the subsequent forward motion DOES violate the mando as the disc was on one side of the restricted area and entirely entered the other side, crossing the line. There's no exception for if the the disc was in a "good spot" and the crossing of the mando line was just due to the swing. The only things that matter are: 1) the restricted space and 2) position of the disc during the throw.

That is the issue I have with the rule and am hoping for clarification or a change. But until it is "changed", if your backswing takes the disc fully into the restricted space and then the throw (forward motion and release) enters the restricted area...it is a penalty.

 

[BillFleming]

I still say the disc is not in play until it's released.

You can say that, but the rule defines a throw to include the propulsion of the disc (which includes the forward motion while the disc is still in the hand). I would like to see the rule changed to be the release of the disc....I think it would be easier and would resolve the mando issue as you could reach back through the plane and make your forward movement as long as the disc is released after it re-crosses the line.

Making the "throw" be the release of the disc, would also make it match up to other rules...where your supporting point is depends on when the disc is released not during the propulsion of the disc.

 

[BillFleming]

Anyways....I've stated how I feel about the rule and as seen from mine and everyone else's comments...there's lots of confusion/differences on how to apply the new rule. Here we are in the new year and the rule is official....if we can't determine how to apply it, how are players handling it (hopefully it hasn't happened in real life yet)? For now, I can't add anything more to the discussion than I've already said....so I'm just going to wait until the Rules Committee clarifies the rule.

 

[robdeforge]

Exactly....the FORWARD momentum of the disc is a throw. That's what I've been saying. Let me try and clarify.

Your stance is close to the line of the mando. Your backswing enters the restricted space from one direction (not a violation). Now your disc is on the other side of the plane of the restricted space. Then your arm and disc start to go FORWARD and again "breaks" the plane of the restricted area. At that point it is a violation. Per the rules, the direction that the disc enters the restricted area does not matter. So going backwards (backswing) doesn't violate the mando because it is a backswing, however, the subsequent forward motion DOES violate the mando as the disc was on one side of the restricted area and entirely entered the other side, crossing the line. There's no exception for if the the disc was in a "good spot" and the crossing of the mando line was just due to the swing. The only things that matter are: 1) the restricted space and 2) position of the disc during the throw.

That is the issue I have with the rule and am hoping for clarification or a change. But until it is "changed", if your backswing takes the disc fully into the restricted space and then the throw (forward motion and release) enters the restricted area...it is a penalty.

I see what you mean and agree with your interpretation. It seems like the "solution" is for players to alter their swing so as to not cross into the restricted space, but that would also require players to understand the rule in its entirety

 

[zenbot]

As with many of the sketches on here your drawing doesn't show what you are asking. The thickness of a designed line is the plane. If it is a tree with no other marking that is the thickness, if it is string or paint its that thick, etc. This is important to know. Your disc spans the thickness of the line. So since it touches in bounds (the correct side of the Mando line plane) you take your lie as in bounds. You haven't illustrated the disc passing back past teh plane. In your drawing, you can throw it where ever you want because you successfully made the mando and never crossed back behind the missed mando line plane.

If the disc had completely cleared or was touching the line but none of it was on the IB side, according to the new ruling, you would have to re-clear the Mando. Here are the answers to scenarios as I understand them now.

1. Disc passes mando object correctly and comes to rest on far side of Mando line plan. No penalty keep playing. Blue Line
2. Discs passes mando object on correct side and comes to rest after hitting and rolling back across the near side of the Mando line plane. No penalty. You have to re-clear the Mando. Orange Line
3. Disc Passes mando correctly and is touching the line (none in bounds) No penalty pass the Mando correctly- Red Line
4. Completely miss Mando. (Penalty) Throw from previous lie or proceed to DZ, wherever that is marked. Green Line
5. Never cross the missed Mando Line Plane, no penalty, properly make Mando (Pink)
6. Miss Mando line plane but bounce back. I don't know, but I think you play with no penalty but have to make the Mando correctly. Black Line

Basically, your only penalty is for missing the mando object and line plan and coming to rest on the far side of that plane

Suddenly, I need several Excedrin.

 

[John Rock]

Suddenly, I need several Excedrin.

John Madden describing Disc Golf mando rule.

 

[BillFleming]

Has there been an update on the Mando rule? Specifically, if the player "makes' the Mando, but the disc ends up close to or on the line. Where the player takes their stance would cause the disc to break the restricted space during their backswing and again during their forward motion (throw).

I am the course director for one of the courses at the Memorial Championship and I need to know how to have my mando spotters indicate a missed mando. We have one spot, where a disc could go through a triple mando, hit a tree and roll back close to the mando line. Or make the mando, hit the slight slope to the side and roll back to the mando line. What should my spotter indicate if the player takes their stance, reaches back through the restricted area, and then throws which would propel the disc back through the restricted space?

I believe that would be a violation, but how else is a player to throw when their disc is good, but on the mando line or close enough to it?

 

[Steve West]

Has there been an update on the Mando rule? Specifically, if the player "makes' the Mando, but the disc ends up close to or on the line. Where the player takes their stance would cause the disc to break the restricted space during their backswing and again during their forward motion (throw).

I am the course director for one of the courses at the Memorial Championship and I need to know how to have my mando spotters indicate a missed mando. We have one spot, where a disc could go through a triple mando, hit a tree and roll back close to the mando line. Or make the mando, hit the slight slope to the side and roll back to the mando line. What should my spotter indicate if the player takes their stance, reaches back through the restricted area, and then throws which would propel the disc back through the restricted space?

I believe that would be a violation, but how else is a player to throw when their disc is good, but on the mando line or close enough to it?

There may be something final in time, but if there isn't, the TD needs to decide ahead of time how to handle it in a way that's compatible with what's written.

It would simplify a lot of situations if you decide that because the restricted space is a plane, the phrase "clearly and completely enters a restricted space" means that a disc lying on the line has gone all the way through the restricted space. (So the player goes to the drop zone with penalty.)

You should also watch Disc Golf Rules School - Episode 7: Mandatories, because the players will be expecting rulings compatible with it.

 

[Jah Plastifari]

Has there been an update on the Mando rule?

Here is the update:

https://www.pdga.com/announcements/pdga-announces-changes-80401-mandatory-routes

I had to think about what they were trying to say in D, but once I had the mental picture it made sense.

I played an unsanctioned event last weekend where a disc passed on the correct side of a mando and rolled back around the tree on the bad side. I was the only one on the card that knew this was now a missed mando. I didn't argue for the penalty stroke, but let them know what the new rule was.

 

[Cgkdisc]

If your disc lands on the good side of the restricted space right by but not touching the restricted space line, do you get to mark 1 meter or more relief from the restricted space line so you don't risk touching it with your body or the disc reach back on your next throw? That was Bill's concern with what to do when disc near the line not just on the line.

 

[Steve West]

If your disc lands on the good side of the restricted space right by but not touching the restricted space line, do you get to mark 1 meter or more relief from the restricted space line so you don't risk touching it with your body or the disc reach back on your next throw? That was Bill's concern with what to do when disc near the line not just on the line.

You don't need to worry about touching it with your body or reach back, so you don't need (and don't get) relief.

 

[Cgkdisc]

You don't need to worry about touching it with your body or reach back, so you don't need (and don't get) relief.

Thanks. Krupicka answered this question the same way with the reminder that you must release the disc on the side of the line where you marked.