Mold Usefulness at Different Power Levels

[slowplastic]

The overall point I want to discuss is if some molds become less trustworthy/nearly "useless" once a certain power level is achieved. If some newer molds that are stable/understable are actually not good discs for advanced players. The creation of these molds may have come about from a few things (the discs are not bad discs!) but I want to know if some of the bigger arms feel that they become less trustworthy.

I haven't played forever, but it seems that for a long time discs were in base plastic, so people would buy their discs overstable, break them in, and buy more. Hence cycling Rocs/Teebirds/whatever...this is not meant to be a conversation on minimalism vs. multiple molds. The idea is that if you bought an understable disc, it would become squirrely. However, now with good plastic so available, and discs designed for this good plastic...and more companies...you can buy discs of any stability off the shelf.

Let's call players by these categories:
Low power = driving up to the ~300' wall
Intermediate = 320-360' average
Advanced = 375'+ (this number because I'm not talking about warp speeders)

So there are some classic discs that are useful for multiple categories, such as a Roc which is an overstable straight to fade disc for low power players, and stable disc that can hit some lines for intermediate players...and advanced players can control it however they want and feed it all their power. The Teebird is also a great example as it is overstable for low power players (but useable), stable/overstable for intermediate, and very controllable and long for advanced players.

Now there are discs out there that are marketed more at the intermediate bracket (which is smart)...discs like glidey midranges that are understable/stable. This will add straight distance for low power players, and be reliable turnovers for intermediate players. However, to an advanced player, how do these work? Do they simply become untrustworthy because they will turn too far and become difficult to range, and that's why lots of high level players seem to skip over these new and "popular" molds? Or do they skip over them because they learned on other stable discs, and have reliable versions of these discs that they can turn over?

What makes a disc viable for an advanced player? Does a high-glide disc that draws in intermediate players suddenly become a negative attribute because it means worse in the wind and harder to range...or do some high glide discs still work well for advanced players? Do discs that are meant to be straight-stable become untrustworthy, and they would rather throw an overstable mold faster than it was designed for?

Have any of you found that discs that initially gave you reliable/longer shots eventually became untrustworthy as your power level increased...and you started moving towards discs that would give you less D/more fade for control?

 

[nolangherity]

clean the mold up immediately with a bleach/ water solution! it WILL spread.

 

[tampora]

The overall point I want to discuss is if some molds become less trustworthy/nearly "useless" once a certain power level is achieved.

There's no need to throw full-power with every shot. Use the correct amount of power necessary to make the disc do what you want.

 

[sidewinder22]

You might not like this answer, but it depends.

 

[slowplastic]

There's no need to throw full-power with every shot. Use the correct amount of power necessary to make the disc do what you want.

It's true. But I'll give a more specific hypothetical example. Say an intermediate player wants to throw a turnover shot around 320'. This player may use something like a Fuse that will glide out there to achieve the distance (which is likely at/near their max midrange distance), and have the right flight path.

Now an advanced player wants to do the same shot. They could throw a Fuse at 50% power and do the same thing. Or they could throw something like a used DX Roc pretty hard (this player can likely throw stable Rocs 350') and know that it will slowly glide to the right. Would most advanced players choose this shot over powering down on the newer more glidey disc? Or would it really only depend on what discs they learned with?

 

[sidewinder22]

Most pros will prefer to hit full clubs.

 

[JedV]

I suppose it depends on the thrower's style. One of the local pros swears by his beat champ Panther but he has so much finness that he can control it reliably. Same with guys that throw putters where I'm throwing a fairway driver. The old cliché stands, it's the archer not the arrow.

Interesting topic. I look forward to seeing the replies.

 

[garublador]

Does a high-glide disc that draws in intermediate players suddenly become a negative attribute because it means worse in the wind and harder to range...or do some high glide discs still work well for advanced players?

Yes and yes. It will depend on the player and the shot. Some prefer to minimize and only throw the easier to range discs and some will carry more molds and utilize the high glide discs when appropriate. It just depends on the given player's strengths and skills.

 

[ru4por]

I think the answer is here amongst the replies. If my noodle arm uses an Underworld, a seven speed, understable fairway driver to hit a 300' foot shot. The question is, would that same disc be valuable in the hands of a player who has a much bigger arm? The answers above say similar things. The big arm would not likely use a fairway driver, but could easily reach with a Comet. The Comet would shape easier, have less skip and carry past the pin, allows the big arm to forgoe powering down a lot, hence eliminating yet another variable and should stick in the chains better. This is all in theory. Just my take.

 

[Timeetyo]

I think the answer is here amongst the replies. If my noodle arm uses an Underworld, a seven speed, understable fairway driver to hit a 300' foot shot. The question is, would that same disc be valuable in the hands of a player who has a much bigger arm? The answers above say similar things. The big arm would not likely use a fairway driver, but could easily reach with a Comet. The Comet would shape easier, have less skip and carry past the pin, allows the big arm to forgoe powering down a lot, hence eliminating yet another variable and should stick in the chains better. This is all in theory. Just my take.

The piece you are missing though, is will that underworld be useful to that bigger arm at a longer distance? I don't think the discs are "not useful" but are just used for different shots based on the arm.

 

[bobmcnelly]

I feel like these "high level" players you speak of don't know how to hyzer flip.

 

[Toro71]

Most pros will prefer to hit full clubs.

This for sure.


Also, though, I'd think, the better the player, the more able to manipulate discs @ diffrent stabilities.

To use the Fuse example, an intermediate player may use it for gentle turnovers @ 90% power. Once he becomes a cannon armed pro, he may use it for gentle turnovers AND flip-up to different sweeping hyzer angles @ lower power (i.e. slippery/wet footing conditions, limited stance/runup/tree up butt lies) and also use it as a medium D/finesse roller @ 90% power. It's actually MORE useful to the advanced high power player.

 

[cblanch4]

I used to throw the innova mako. It was the straightest flying disc i had ever thrown. Then i got more power and it essentially became useless to me. I turned it over every time i threw over 80% power. However i could throw it softer off the tee and get the same result as throwing my putter off the tee. i find a full power putter is easier to gauge distance than toning down a flippier disc. it is much easier to throw with the same power and choose a disc to match the distance than it is to have a disc and have to adjust the power accordingly. So although it may not be useless, i found accurace goes down. I now use only those discs that fly how they are supposed to with my power. most of the flippy stuff has been removed from my bag. However these "usless" discs could be used for rollers or hyzer flip shots and wouldn't be useless anymore. not to mention they are good discs for throwing from the knees, or behind a tree where you can't throw full power

 

[Aim For The Chains]

all discs are useful at a high power-- some are not really all that useful as they were designed without enough power though'

 

[Mike C]

Another thing the OP ignores is how clean a throwers form is. An example is I can drive neutral putters and mids 400', but a lot of rec players will flip a putter if they try to put 200' of power on it. Also most people can't flick neutral putters, especially off the tee, which is a shot I use every round.

Just something else to think about.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I used to throw the innova mako. It was the straightest flying disc i had ever thrown. Then i got more power and it essentially became useless to me. I turned it over every time i threw over 80% power.

This I'm very curious about. I used to turn over putters like crazy, retooled my form and I can throw them 300' now (anodes, ions, aviars) with zero flutter. The Mako though, seems to have a real sensitivity to speed which actually makes it really nice for turn overs, but not so much for flat shots.

 

[Smigles]

The overall point I want to discuss is if some molds become less trustworthy/nearly "useless" once a certain power level is achieved.

Only if by power you mean that you tork it. Look at the pros, they can all throw understable midranges up to 400 feet. Nothing useless there.

 

[slowplastic]

Really good responses here, and everyone has said things that are valid.

I also agree that it's easier to do a ~70-80% power shot than any other type for myself. Since I haven't been playing a long time, I've really seen how my disc selection has changed on the same holes over the improvement process. Shots I used to have to throw a fairway driver for and hope that I threw it hard enough to not fade, I could later throw a Roc on and know it would barely fade. Now I feel that I'd rather throw 80% with a putter that would not fade ever than 60% with a Roc. This is an obvious thing that shows people would rather throw at a consistent power...so that would relate to my example of throwing the turnover with a beat Roc rather than powering down a Fuse, if you are in that power range.

As was also mentioned is the hyzer flip...which is a huge factor in all of this. Discs that an intermediate player throws near flat, an advanced player will need to hyzer flip. For me, with discs I have had in my bag for a while, this isn't a huge issue. But if I get a new disc that turns for me, it takes a good week or two to really get all of my angles dialed in. From tourney footage, it seems that pro's nearly always throw with some angle of hyzer release for consistency (of course anhyzer and specialty shots not included!), knowing that it will flip and ride straight, or hold a consistent hyzer.

So now let's say there's a 300-350' straight tunnel (or adjust for your power level)...what is the more consistent shot? Hyzer flipping a "newer" mold like a Fuse or similar (I've never even thrown one, just picking this as my reference example!), knowing it could go dead straight and will not fade...or throwing something like a Roc at near flat, knowing that at this power it will fade forwards and its HSS will be near 0? (I don't care if you would throw a putter, this is an example....)

 

[slowplastic]

Only if by power you mean that you tork it. Look at the pros, they can all throw understable midranges up to 400 feet. Nothing useless there.

Yeah I bet they can (not sarcastic tone). It's just in lots of the ITB videos I see many of the "classic" discs vs. the new hot stable/understable ones.

Then again, of the few discs I've thrown on here that people say turn over for them, I can put them 40'+ over the distance that some people say they turn on and they still go straight. And Mike C could add 50' on my distance. So you're right, a lot of it is on the form side of things...but my question comes from seeing lots of the more stable discs in the pro bags.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Throwing hyzer flips straight with stuff to avoid is IMO much harder than throwing flat. Something about throwing hyzer on a straight line tends to lead to early slipping, at least for me. I like throw hyzerflips if I have room to throw a regular hyzyer shot though.

Understable drivers (RR, Sidewinder, Archon) are fantastic tools for people throwing 400+.

Understable mids, I honestly only bag a Mako and I feel like I can throw a putter on nearly every line that I can throw the Mako. It's become a rarely thrown disc, that I love very much.