Mold Usefulness at Different Power Levels

[dragonlord]

A question on a related note if it please the forum.........I saw a reply that said something about a beginning player turning over a disc that previously had lots of fade for that person. My question is.....Is power the main "ingredient" for turning over a particular disc?

In my case the specifics are, I was throwing a dragon earlier in the summer and now I cant even remotely get it to hold a flat line it turns over every time and becomes an inadvertent roller. I moved to the 9 speed Valk and was throwing it really well when all of a sudden it started turning over on me too. up to the Beast and so far no turn over, is this due to increasing power or something else I am missing.

I also have a champion panther that I was throwing really well then all of a sudden I just couldn't keep it from turning over. Some please help me with this without blasting me with stuff over my head as I am a complete noob.

Thanks for any help

 

[Timeetyo]

A question on a related note if it please the forum.........I saw a reply that said something about a beginning player turning over a disc that previously had lots of fade for that person. My question is.....Is power the main "ingredient" for turning over a particular disc?

In my case the specifics are, I was throwing a dragon earlier in the summer and now I cant even remotely get it to hold a flat line it turns over every time and becomes an inadvertent roller. I moved to the 9 speed Valk and was throwing it really well when all of a sudden it started turning over on me too. up to the Beast and so far no turn over, is this due to increasing power or something else I am missing.

I also have a champion panther that I was throwing really well then all of a sudden I just couldn't keep it from turning over. Some please help me with this without blasting me with stuff over my head as I am a complete noob.

Thanks for any help

Quick question - how far were you throwing when turning over that dragon & valk? Was the valk DX?

This is likely a combination of a few things:
1: As the disc beats in (very fast for a dragon - especially if you like to hit trees) it becomes more and more flippy and is easier to turn over.
2: As you increase power and distance those discs are more likely to turn
3: You are likely torqueing them over more and more as you gain distance due to poor form.

Most likely the largest contribution is coming from 3.

 

[slowplastic]

Agreed with Timeetyo for dragonlord's question. Those are fast discs (like the Valk)...they should not be rolling on you. If you are throwing them 400'+ then you should know what is going on though...so likely they are getting torqued over from form.

Things turning over is due to spin on the disc vs. the speed it is flying at. As you add power to your throws, discs will begin to turn over...but if your form is clean and you are imparting lots of snap on the disc (so it spins more as well) then most discs should still remain controllable. If discs are turning and burning all the time...then you're probably torquing it a bit and likely not getting a lot of spin on the disc as well. This is when people often recommend throwing your slower (putter/mid) discs until they fly straight for you...the exact opposite of throwing faster discs that hide the flaw! Put down the beast and pick up an Aviar heh...

---------------------------

As far as my point of view on this question from my OP, I'm glad that most people say that all discs have some use as your power goes up...but that use may change (overstable disc is now a straight shot...turnover disc is now roller, etc.). That's kind of been my perspective. I throw lots of neutral-ish discs and really enjoy getting different lines out of them. I've been finding my stable/overstable stuff is now flying more neutral stable, but I'm still able to control the neutral discs and adjust hyzer flips.

I think that a difference when moving up in power, the extra glide/distance that some discs may lure you in with becomes a little less important, compared to how their consistency holds true if they are overpowered a bit. If you throw it at its intended cruising speed and it sees a gust of wind, does it turn way over or just ride to the right a bit? The extra 10-20' difference the glidey disc would have gained you, is now outweighed by the fact that it drifted 50' to the right (obviously I'm referring to a HSS touchy disc, not meaning all glidey discs do this).

 

[JedV]

Another thing the OP ignores is how clean a throwers form is. An example is I can drive neutral putters and mids 400', but a lot of rec players will flip a putter if they try to put 200' of power on it. Also most people can't flick neutral putters, especially off the tee, which is a shot I use every round.

Just something else to think about.

Queue up the old Nike commercial: "I want to be like Mike!"

 

[dragonlord]

Quick question - how far were you throwing when turning over that dragon & valk? Was the valk DX

was averaging about 175ft as I was just starting out. Yes it was a dx valk now have a champion valk too.
Thanks for the input guys will really try to workout that torqueing thing if I can figure out how.
I have been really working on form and trying to learn the right way to do this thing. Have been trying to throw mostly my aviar and my panther and my comet. anything else on how to improve without system overloading me is greatly appreciated.

 

[natedg1976]

was averaging about 175ft as I was just starting out. Yes it was a dx valk now have a champion valk too.
Thanks for the input guys will really try to workout that torqueing thing if I can figure out how.
I have been really working on form and trying to learn the right way to do this thing. Have been trying to throw mostly my aviar and my panther and my comet. anything else on how to improve without system overloading me is greatly appreciated.

The panther, comet, and aviar are great discs. I carry a champion panther at 175. It is a very workable disc and an excellent learning disc. If you can find one, pic up a champ spider. Another great mid range from innova. I would round out with a leopard, maybe a cheetah, and a champ tl. That is in my mind a perfect starter set. Aviar, champ spider, champ panther, champ leopard, champ tl. 167-169 on the drivers, max weight 175 on the rest.

 

[Tfire25]

was averaging about 175ft as I was just starting out. Yes it was a dx valk now have a champion valk too.
Thanks for the input guys will really try to workout that torqueing thing if I can figure out how.
I have been really working on form and trying to learn the right way to do this thing. Have been trying to throw mostly my aviar and my panther and my comet. anything else on how to improve without system overloading me is greatly appreciated.

Post a video up of you throwing in the critique section. It will help a lot. You should not be turning a valk over at 175'.

My wife had the same issue. It was mostly because she was releasing in an anny. I know people get nervous posting videos of themselves but the guys over there are pretty freaking awesome. Sidewinder22 might bite a little but its all in fun.

 

[garublador]

Quick question - how far were you throwing when turning over that dragon & valk? Was the valk DX?

This is likely a combination of a few things:
1: As the disc beats in (very fast for a dragon - especially if you like to hit trees) it becomes more and more flippy and is easier to turn over.
2: As you increase power and distance those discs are more likely to turn
3: You are likely torqueing them over more and more as you gain distance due to poor form.

Most likely the largest contribution is coming from 3.

I agree that it's almost certainly 3. However, it's worth noting that with the Dragon, 1 and 2 will become an issue very quickly. People say that there are no useless discs to pros, but they forget about discs like the Archangel, Dragon, Wolf and even Sidewinder and new mold Beast. There's a reason you don't see a lot (if any) of those discs in a vast majority of pros' bags. Along with being very understable, they're difficult to control. It's very hard to get them to turn when and how much you want. Most pros do find discs like this useless. If they are there it's probably for some pretty specific trick shot.

 

[kevdiv48]

Throwing hyzer flips straight with stuff to avoid is IMO much harder than throwing flat. Something about throwing hyzer on a straight line tends to lead to early slipping, at least for me. I like throw hyzerflips if I have room to throw a regular hyzyer shot though.

I feel the opposite. With a hyzer release, I have a larger margin of error compared to releasing flat. Something like a beat Aviar, Comet, beat Roc or Leopard (depending on distance) released with hyzer is my go-to for straight/ tunnel shots.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

I agree that it's almost certainly 3. However, it's worth noting that with the Dragon, 1 and 2 will become an issue very quickly. People say that there are no useless discs to pros, but they forget about discs like the Archangel, Dragon, Wolf and even Sidewinder and new mold Beast. There's a reason you don't see a lot (if any) of those discs in a vast majority of pros' bags. Along with being very understable, they're difficult to control. It's very hard to get them to turn when and how much you want. Most pros do find discs like this useless. If they are there it's probably for some pretty specific trick shot.

IMO its also why you see MOST top level players carrying seasoned versions of a stable disc which turns vs a turning disc out of the box like the molds you mention.

My comment wasn't that Pros WILL use those discs but they COULD throw them. I have thrown some really horrible models so you are definitely right about control but I don't think they would look at them like the discs are useless.

 

[garublador]

IMO its also why you see MOST top level players carrying seasoned versions of a stable disc which turns vs a turning disc out of the box like the molds you mention.

My comment wasn't that Pros WILL use those discs but they COULD throw them. I have thrown some really horrible models so you are definitely right about control but I don't think they would look at them like the discs are useless.

So not useless, just discs they'd never throw in a tournament?

My guess is that each pro has a hand full of discs from each category and each manufacturer that they'd consider throwing. If you look at all the pros and all of those discs there would be some discs that show up vary rarely or not at all. Whether they're "useless" or just "never used" is just semantics. I think what the OP was getting at is whether or not discs like that exist. Asking whether or not a pro could get a good drive from every disc given enough attempts isn't a horribly useful question.

 

[garublador]

I feel the opposite. With a hyzer release, I have a larger margin of error compared to releasing flat. Something like a beat Aviar, Comet, beat Roc or Leopard (depending on distance) released with hyzer is my go-to for straight/ tunnel shots.

I agree. Many discs, especially ones that fly really straight when thrown flat (i.e. high resistance to turn) will either act quite a bit differently when thrown on a slight hyzer or a slight anhyzer or fade hard. Disc that fly straight on a hyzer flip give you a much larger margin of error with much lower fade.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I agree. Many discs, especially ones that fly really straight when thrown flat (i.e. high resistance to turn) will either act quite a bit differently when thrown on a slight hyzer or a slight anhyzer or fade hard. Disc that fly straight on a hyzer flip give you a much larger margin of error with much lower fade.

I certainly can see that - I guess it comes down to the fact that I rarely play tree courses. I play courses that almost always have plenty of room to work the disc right to left or left to right.

When I transition to needing to throw straight, I love throwing a 173g Truth really flat about 8-10' off the ground.

If I had to hyzer flip something, I don't really have a great mid for it, which leads back to throwing flat or stepping up to a 167g * RoadRunner.

 

[slowplastic]

Garu you were right about what I was meaning with my question...by "useless" I was meaning that you would much prefer to replace that disc with X, Y, or Z that is now more controllable. Not that the disc suddenly explodes to shrapnel once released because you Beato'd it so hard.

An example along the same lines...that I do not personally have the power to experience...is that many pro's (Innova) throw Destroyers rather than Bosses. They can clearly throw speed 13 discs, but from what I have heard the Destroyer has a gradual controllable turn when overpowered, whereas the Boss will turn more aggressively when over the threshold. They would rather have the control than the bit of extra D potential. Again this is what I've gathered from several threads...I do not have the arm to overpower a Destroyer or Boss.

I agree. Many discs, especially ones that fly really straight when thrown flat (i.e. high resistance to turn) will either act quite a bit differently when thrown on a slight hyzer or a slight anhyzer or fade hard. Disc that fly straight on a hyzer flip give you a much larger margin of error with much lower fade.

That's a really good point. I do love discs that have 0 HSS as I feel so confident throwing them...but I have definitely noticed that if I have even <5 degrees of hyzer inadvertently, they will sweep hyzer the shot a bit. It can require a lot of precision. Whereas a disc with minimal/slight turn, thrown anywhere around that amount of hyzer will flip up to about flat and ride pretty straight. It's almost an unconscious amount of hyzer that has to be added, but it does make the difference in this case between a straight-ish shot and a sweeping shot of a HSS stable disc.

Perhaps this is a reason why many pro's seem to "overpower" discs with a great ability to absorb clean power, than throw the faster disc within its range (generalization, line choice makes a big difference obviously). For example a Roc (again my classic example....no I am not obsessed with Rocs!) will be consistent for an average player at 275-300' with flat release. But pro's tend to throw them 320-360' often and use a mild hyzer flip. This likely stems from that forgiving release angle, knowing it will barely but subtly turn and ride nearly straight no matter what.

 

[timj5304]

Alright I have a perfect example to an extent for a hole. This hole is 285 ft from the long pin, we had a circle of ob that was about 35 ft short of the basket circling to the back side of the basket, only problem was you couldn't go too long, about 12 ft past the basket was ob deep. It's a tunnel shot with a lower ceiling. When I hear guys saying they would throw a putter I laugh because I haven't seen anyone throw a putter on this hole during live play before. I was on a card with a group of 4, the guy who can throw 525 or so threw a champion teebird and was pin high to the left in bounds. Guy who throws 450-475 threw a esp buzzz and hit something near the $hitter and went ob short. My partner threw about 450 and threw a stalker that skipped just deep ob. I powered down on an esp flash and was pin high 3 ft left. I throw 350 consistently and max out in the 390 range, I can get a buzzz threw but the issue is the low ceiling and hitting the trees high. What would you guys throw on this hole?


image by timj5304, on Flickr


image by timj5304, on Flickr

 

[kevdiv48]

^Star Leopard, on a hyzer release at ~70% power

 

[slowplastic]

^Same power as you, and it would be between the Buzzz-type mid thrown flat or an understable fairway hyzer flipped...or the laser with the bird.

I feel that a mid that is consistent for HSS would be able to release down the gut, and as you said the ceiling is then the only concern. Just keep it under the trees and no worry essentially about long/short or left/right.

The hyzer-flip understable fairway driver route would introduce a bit of concern about going deep, and you'll have to hit the angle/power correctly for the tunnel. However, the ceiling will not be a concern at all. I think this shot has the most variables unless you really know the disc.

I think the best shot might be the Teebird as you listed. It's a disc that can handle a big armed thrower, so the HSS will keep it laser straight, and as long as you throw it low enough it won't fade. Almost like the Buzzz option but without the risk of the ceiling.

(With all that being said I would probably hyzer flip a fairway though....weird)

 

[garublador]

That's a really good point. I do love discs that have 0 HSS as I feel so confident throwing them...but I have definitely noticed that if I have even <5 degrees of hyzer inadvertently, they will sweep hyzer the shot a bit. It can require a lot of precision. Whereas a disc with minimal/slight turn, thrown anywhere around that amount of hyzer will flip up to about flat and ride pretty straight. It's almost an unconscious amount of hyzer that has to be added, but it does make the difference in this case between a straight-ish shot and a sweeping shot of a HSS stable disc.

I left something out on that, too. If you cycle your discs and are throwing beat discs for that shot then by the time they're straight flying hyzer flip discs you know them really well. Discs like that also tend to have real gradual turn characteristics (it takes bigger technique changes to get smaller amounts of turn) and less fade, so they're already ideal for that type of shot.

 

[garublador]

When I hear guys saying they would throw a putter I laugh because I haven't seen anyone throw a putter on this hole during live play before. I was on a card with a group of 4, the guy who can throw 525 or so threw a champion teebird and was pin high to the left in bounds. Guy who throws 450-475 threw a esp buzzz and hit something near the $hitter and went ob short. My partner threw about 450 and threw a stalker that skipped just deep ob. I powered down on an esp flash and was pin high 3 ft left. I throw 350 consistently and max out in the 390 range, I can get a buzzz threw but the issue is the low ceiling and hitting the trees high. What would you guys throw on this hole?

Also realize that you just pointed out that 2 of the 3 people who throw over 400' went OB when trying to power down with a faster disc. Compare the overall scores you guys got with what you guys would have got by throwing two safe approaches and dropping it in.

 

[slowplastic]

I left something out on that, too. If you cycle your discs and are throwing beat discs for that shot then by the time they're straight flying hyzer flip discs you know them really well. Discs like that also tend to have real gradual turn characteristics (it takes bigger technique changes to get smaller amounts of turn) and less fade, so they're already ideal for that type of shot.

That again kind of hits the exact reason that I posted my initial question.

Lots of pro's do throw the stable disc that has been beat a little bit for this hyzer flip shot. It is very trustworthy (since it is a gradual turn and the fade will be almost gone), and plus they have experience with this disc for the months+ it took to get it to this point. This makes sense why they would use it.

Now, compare that to a brand new, off the shelf premium plastic disc with say a -1/2 rating (whereas the beat disc they may have used started with a 0/3 rating...now would be closer to the -1/2). To me, I like knowing that I can pick up a new disc with -1/2 off the shelf and the plastic will keep consistent for a while. But I also see the appeal of using a disc you've known for a while...other than the issue that losing it could have.

Is familiarity and constant use/cycling why pro's tend to use the older stable discs...even though they could get endless sponsor discs that are less stable in good plastic? Or are most molds that are slightly understable when fresh just always going to be a bit less trustworthy than a disc that had the fade beat out of it?...I guess a further example of this, is most pro ITB videos I see tons of Teebirds (including a beat one or two), but not a TL.