Mold Usefulness at Different Power Levels

[natedg1976]

Alright I have a perfect example to an extent for a hole. This hole is 285 ft from the long pin, we had a circle of ob that was about 35 ft short of the basket circling to the back side of the basket, only problem was you couldn't go too long, about 12 ft past the basket was ob deep. It's a tunnel shot with a lower ceiling. When I hear guys saying they would throw a putter I laugh because I haven't seen anyone throw a putter on this hole during live play before. I was on a card with a group of 4, the guy who can throw 525 or so threw a champion teebird and was pin high to the left in bounds. Guy who throws 450-475 threw a esp buzzz and hit something near the $hitter and went ob short. My partner threw about 450 and threw a stalker that skipped just deep ob. I powered down on an esp flash and was pin high 3 ft left. I throw 350 consistently and max out in the 390 range, I can get a buzzz threw but the issue is the low ceiling and hitting the trees high. What would you guys throw on this hole?


image by timj5304, on Flickr


image by timj5304, on Flickr

This type of shot is what I traded for a Roc3 for. I can get a chief a good way through all of that, but it would be hard with that low ceiling and by no means a drop in. I truly think the Roc3 is my answer. I have just messed with a couple and can get some nice lines with them. The one coming is 9/10 171. I can't wait.

 

[timj5304]

Also realize that you just pointed out that 2 of the 3 people who throw over 400' went OB when trying to power down with a faster disc. Compare the overall scores you guys got with what you guys would have got by throwing two safe approaches and dropping it in.

Neither of the two who went ob powered down, they threw slower discs but still threw them hard. One with the buzzz just threw a bad shot the right which will happen on holes like that to anyone at times. The stalker looked parked and ended up about 15 ft deep, just got a big skip off the hill. It was the correct disc for the shot but just didn't work with the ob. In the end both doubles groups got deuces with the guy who throws 525 ft making the deuce putt.

Most of the time I am noticing when the money is on the line pros aren't throwing putters on 250+ ft shots. We have arguabling the biggest arm in the world in our area who in the final 9 of our A tier was throwing midranges on shots in the 225-275 range which shocked me but he won. Maybe the thing to do is follow what the best guys are doing on shots, not the internet tough guys who can bomb putters 700 ft

 

[New013]

This I'm very curious about. I used to turn over putters like crazy, retooled my form and I can throw them 300' now (anodes, ions, aviars) with zero flutter. The Mako though, seems to have a real sensitivity to speed which actually makes it really nice for turn overs, but not so much for flat shots.

It's his form, Even well beaten in Makos don't flip when thrown correctly. My most beat in Mako can be thrown 350' and it'll only have a nice slight movement to the right for the last 50' of the flight.

I can take a newer Mako and throw it 350' dead straight.

Now a disc like the Fuse can be thrown on very similar lines as a Mako and at lower speeds will behave very close to a Mako but if you throw a Fuse 350' it's going to turnover/hyzerflip up much more.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

image by timj5304, on Flickr


image by timj5304, on Flickr

I always throw a tangent here and have no issues with the ceiling. Its fairly high for a short shot and with the up-hill approach you can land short then slide up to the basket. Now that you mention it I might try a putter next time :| but yes powering down a fairway makes sense many times.

 

[timj5304]

Well correct you can slide up to the basket BUT if you hit the bottom of the hill where the grass is in this case your disc will stop and not skip and...............your throwing 3 from the drop zone in this case when the ob is put up. If you really enjoy having 30+ ft uphill putts often go for it!

 

[Timeetyo]

Another thing the OP ignores is how clean a throwers form is. An example is I can drive neutral putters and mids 400', but a lot of rec players will flip a putter if they try to put 200' of power on it. Also most people can't flick neutral putters, especially off the tee, which is a shot I use every round.

Just something else to think about.

Out of curiosity, how much of that discrepancy (turning it at 200 vs 400) is due to the extra torque from the 200' player and how much is due to the delta in spin relative to forward speed at release?

 

[nolangherity]

i love cone baskets

 

[elmexdela]

i would throw a beat stalker and watch it weasel its way up

 

[BrotherDave]

All discs break in to a sweet spot. So understable discs right off the shelf will still break in as they lose flashing/get nicked up/PLH gets moved down. A lot of these US when new discs can be hard to replace b/c replicating that sweet spot seems a bit more random. It's a like a bigger margin of error from sweet spot to squirrely.

Another big thing that I don't think has been said yet is that for a lot of these holes that low power guys would use floaty turnovers on, most pros have a very well versed FH they'd rather use. Spike hyzers are easy to range so if the hole can be reached with a BH turnover with a floaty disc vs a simple FH hyzer the pro is choosing the latter. It's the simpler line.

 

[garublador]

Or are most molds that are slightly understable when fresh just always going to be a bit less trustworthy than a disc that had the fade beat out of it?...I guess a further example of this, is most pro ITB videos I see tons of Teebirds (including a beat one or two), but not a TL.

That's a big part of it, too. Discs that are understable out of the box tend to get squirrley when beat while discs that are a bit overstable out of the box stay easy to control. There will always be exceptions, but my guess is that's why you see a lot more Teebirds and Eagles than TL's and Leopards.

Neither of the two who went ob powered down, they threw slower discs but still threw them hard. One with the buzzz just threw a bad shot the right which will happen on holes like that to anyone at times. The stalker looked parked and ended up about 15 ft deep, just got a big skip off the hill. It was the correct disc for the shot but just didn't work with the ob. In the end both doubles groups got deuces with the guy who throws 525 ft making the deuce putt.

So it was best shot doubles? You make different decisions in that case than you do otherwise.

Most of the time I am noticing when the money is on the line pros aren't throwing putters on 250+ ft shots. We have arguabling the biggest arm in the world in our area who in the final 9 of our A tier was throwing midranges on shots in the 225-275 range which shocked me but he won. Maybe the thing to do is follow what the best guys are doing on shots, not the internet tough guys who can bomb putters 700 ft

I agree that doing what the best guys do is a good idea, which is be able to throw as many discs as possible for as many shots as possible. My guess is they all can throw putters for those shots, but many times choose not to. If you have to throw mids and fairway drivers for those shots then you are not emulating the pros.

I'm a bit confused about the hole. Is the only place that isn't OB a 35' circle around the basket or can you lay up at 200'?

Assuming it's the latter, it sill stands that 2 of the 3 big arm players would have had to make what sounds like a 35' putt on a cone basket to get a 3 if it were singles (if you aren't familiar with cone baskets, that's very hard), while someone who threw two easy approach shots would have a drop in 3. Out of the 4 of you only 1/2 made the shot. You'd have to evaluate if that's good enough for the hole. Again, because it was doubles, going for it probably made more sense than it would if it were singles.

 

[timj5304]

Correct no layup area, had to clear 250 or so ft to make the circle, I would say the circle was 50 ft by 50 ft but slanted so if your short your ok but if your deep your likely ob. The discs thrown were the same ones each of us throw on that hole close to every time, I often throw a legacy bandit, latitude river, discraft comet or discraft buzzz depending on the wind. I was genuinely going for an ace run which a buzzz won't do from the long with that low ceiling as I thought my partner was parked and turned out ob.

That particular hole, the only people who I know of who have aced it are left handed players because it's open coming in vs righty having to literally miss trees that are just maybe 5 ft higher than the pins height.

If paul mcbeth or ken climo threw a putter and not a roc on that shot I would be shocked.

 

[Mike C]

Out of curiosity, how much of that discrepancy (turning it at 200 vs 400) is due to the extra torque from the 200' player and how much is due to the delta in spin relative to forward speed at release?

The 200' player puts less torque on the throw, but the disc often comes out wobbly due to OAT. When you throw on a clean plane, you can give most discs as much torque as your body can deliver without unpredictable flights happening.

 

[slowplastic]

The 200' player puts less torque on the throw, but the disc often comes out wobbly due to OAT. When you throw on a clean plane, you can give most discs as much torque as your body can deliver without unpredictable flights happening.

Do you find some discs still turn over too far for you? By too far I just mean you need to throw them with way more hyzer than is comfortable/should be necessary? I ask because I know you impart a lot of snap on the disc and also throw clean/no OAT.

What I find kind of funny is that some slower discs like stable putters or mids can handle all the clean power you can give it and they still fly with almost no turn. But then some fairway drivers or understable high speed stuff will turn with a clean throw as well. It's weird that the faster disc with a more LSS finish will be less able to hold a straight flight at high speed. Does this also happen to you with your form?

 

[Mike C]

Yep. For example, I can throw a Wizard and a Valk 400' and have the Valk act more understable, depending on the PLH and condition of each. I gravitate towards molds which hold a stable line under a wide range of power, which for my MVP-focused bag is stuff like the Envy, Axis, Crave, Volt & Tesla.

There aren't many discs I try that I find impossible to control. One of the recent discs I tested, the UB Procul, is very flippy for me. If I throw it with a lot of hyzer at full power it tended to turn into a roller. But if I back off my power and throw it 60%, I could get floaty 400'+ shots. So sometimes its just a matter of finding the right combination of power and hyzer.

Most of my flippy discs are beat up stable molds, like a beat Axis, beat Volt etc., which is a subject that has been covered in this thread. They can take a more power style throw which is what I like doing for BH distance shots, and I adjust the hyzer angle to make them turn earlier or later in the flight.