need advice on new course, all players Please reply

[wellandfit]

Hello fellow disc golf pals: A disc golf course is being considered and I'm looking for some sage advice. I have a few questions and sure would appreciate you taking a minute to educate me. First, a little background.

The course under consideration is located on a large ranch some 70 miles west of San Antonio and Austin. A regular golf course is there, but is not maintained and nature is recapturing it. No one plays there anymore. The scenery is breathtaking, lots of wooded areas, water, hills, wildlife. There is a pro shop though not being used. The ranch is actually a resort formally used for group gatherings. There is a large outdoor pavilion excellent for group gatherings, large ranch house with sleeping quarters for a dozen or more guests, and several fully equipped guest houses. Group hunting is popular during the hunting season. Fishing is great. The owners live on the ranch.

I sense a world class disc course could be developed there with relatively little investment. One major consideration is would players come. There are two smaller communities within 20 minutes of the ranch: Fredericksburg (15K) and Kerrville (25K). Both are very popular tourist destinations and both have public disc courses. Now to my questions.

1. Would players from Austin and San Antonio come 70 miles to play the course, if so, how often?
2. Would players pay for play, and how much?
3. What about groups of players coming to play?
4. What about groups of players coming for a weekend stay?
5. What's the best method of contacting disc players in the area?
6. What are some methods for promoting the sport in the small communities nearby (15 miles away)?
7. What are some other good sources to address these questions?

Perhaps you can think of other ideas or concerns; please speak up.

Your time and experience is most helpful and I'm grateful for both.

Warm regards,

Bill McPherson
[email protected]

 

[DavidSauls]

Wow, a lot to ponder. Hard to guess from here, because a lot depends on how many disc golfers are around, and how good the other courses that might keep them home are.

Two resources are Selah Ranch, which is a long way away but sounds similar, and John Houck, noted for creating destination courses in Texas.

 

[bradharris]

1. I'm not from the area, but 70 miles is a long drive to play. I would drive that far to play a good tournament. To drive that far just to play the course, it would have to be truly world class with enough layout variety to be able to enjoy a full day there.

2. If the quality is worth the cost, pay-to-play can work. But you have to be able to provide a superior product. It will be hard to get anyone to pay much more than $10/day though.

3. What about them? I think you would see a mix of solos, pairs, and groups.

4. The only time I would ever consider a weekend stay for DG is for a multi-day tournament.

5. Can't help you there.

6. Establishing a weekly league can help get local players out to the course. And a tournament can draw from an even wider radius.

 

[allinpflop]

I'm sure that I am not typical in how far I would be willing to travel and how much I would be willing to pay but.....

My wife and I drove from Austin simply to play Selah Ranch and happily paid $80 bucks to do so (40 for cart and 20 each greens fee). If you can have a world class designer create a world class course serious players will seek it out. Again that is a very small percentage of the disc golf community and even that small percentage of disc golfers even fewer are willing to spend that kind of cash. Remember most disc golfers are poor scum of the earth types.

 

[DavidSauls]

I sense a world class disc course could be developed there with relatively little investment. One major consideration is would players come. There are two smaller communities within 20 minutes of the ranch: Fredericksburg (15K) and Kerrville (25K). Both are very popular tourist destinations and both have public disc courses. Now to my questions.

1. Would players from Austin and San Antonio come 70 miles to play the course, if so, how often?
2. Would players pay for play, and how much?
3. What about groups of players coming to play?
4. What about groups of players coming for a weekend stay?
5. What's the best method of contacting disc players in the area?
6. What are some methods for promoting the sport in the small communities nearby (15 miles away)?
7. What are some other good sources to address these questions?

There are a lot of variables that will affect all this. Starting with, whether the creation is really a "world class course", whatever that is. Top 10? Top 25? 4.5+ rated? 4.0+? Selah Ranch certainly seems to have a good draw.

It also depends on the owners' expectations. Do they need significant income, or just a little bit over costs?

1. Depends on those particular communities, and also the caliber of courses they have closer to home. I have a course that, while perhaps not world-class, is pretty good, and is 70 miles or so from Charlotte and Augusta. But those disc golf hotbeds also have excellent courses so, except for tournaments, we don't see a great number of visitors from them.

2. $5 is easy, $10 may work for a really great course, beyond that I'd expect a fall-off in willing payors. Unless it's really fabulous.

3. Not sure what you mean. You'll get carloads on daytrips. You won't get busloads.

4. Probably not.....unless you put in 2 or more courses, to warrant staying that long. And, of course, tournaments.

5. Local clubs, local club facebook pages, the PDGA state coordinator. And, of course, DGCR forums.

You might also check with Blue Ribbon Pines, which I understand is doing a brisk pay-to-play business.

One source of players is disc golf tourists---the folks that travel for weeks at a time, playing courses. A quality course will get a share of this business. A course in southern Texas will get winter visitors from northern states. These folks may camp or stay in a lodge if their arrival coordinates with the end of a day.

 

[Nemmers]

1. Would players from Austin and San Antonio come 70 miles to play the course, if so, how often?
2. Would players pay for play, and how much?
3. What about groups of players coming to play?
4. What about groups of players coming for a weekend stay?
5. What's the best method of contacting disc players in the area?
6. What are some methods for promoting the sport in the small communities nearby (15 miles away)?
7. What are some other good sources to address these questions?

I'm a newbie to the sport, but since I have no compunction whatever about driving four hours to play a worthy course I feel obligated to reply.

1. Yes. If it's done right and is as epic as you seem to indicate, people will drive to play your course. I was stationed in Fort Worth for four years (and Corpus Christi for five months) and don't mind telling you that I wouldn't hesitate to make the drive down 35 to play a bad-ass DG course.

2. If the course was (in my best Cousin Eddie accent) *click* "really nice," I'd pay five, maybe ten, bucks to play all day....depending on how far I had to drive.

3, 4. Groups, depending on how many came and how far they come, will undoubtedly be your bread and butter. You need to offer something other courses don't. For instance, a store that carries a lot of different types of discs. If you're truly considering this and have no locals to boost your economy, you should consider giving outsiders something else to make the drive for besides the scenery. Sounds like your lodge would do nicely. And if you can offer campgrounds for players, so much the better. A captive audience addicted to disc golf will spend three mortgage payments for discs. At least I would. (Just kidding!) (Sort of.)

5. Here. Facebook. Local shops.

6. Once you make enough money, buy a basket and a couple putters for a local bar with some land out back. Offer prizes for anyone who can ace or deuce a shot after a few. That's the over-riding issue with DG: lack of pop-knowledge. Get the word out, make it fun, and show them what they're missing. Some may accuse you of taking advantage of drunks, but let's face it: You're here to make money, not cure alcoholism. Chances are you'll get not only more customers, but more people invested in the game. And you can always say you saved X-number of heart attacks by getting people out of the bar who might otherwise have been belly-up without the exercise that the allure of disc golf offers.

7. You're probably in the best spot ever, with people much more knowledgeable than me at your fingertips.

Best of luck, brother. If you get this thing off the ground and make the course, next time I come back home I'd love to drink a half-rack over a round of golf and shake your hand.

Happy holidays! :thmbup:

 

[BrotherDave]

I'm not from Austin or San Antonio but I'd easily drive 70 miles to play a top notch private course.

 

[mashnut]

For a single course that I would personally rate 4+ or multiple courses that I would rate 3.5+ I'd drive 70 miles once every month or two.

Facebook seems to be the major way that anything disc golf gets organized around here, not sure if that's true in your area.

 

[DavidSauls]

I'm not from Austin or San Antonio but I'd easily drive 70 miles to play a top notch private course.

The question, from a financial standpoint, is how often? Will you drive to and play that course once a month? Every other month? Even if there are plenty of 4+ courses in the same range, or closer?

For that contingent to be a significant resource for this course, a lot of those players will have to make the drive fairly often.

 

[allinpflop]

If your motivations for installing a world class disc facility are financial in nature......

I suggest you find something else to do.

 

[DavidSauls]

If your motivations for installing a world class disc facility are financial in nature......

I suggest you find something else to do.

I think that depends. If by "financial" we mean, covering the costs, perhaps exceeding them by a couple of hundred dollars a year, it's perfectly reasonable. It's the difference between whether installing a course is an expense, or a relatively free property enhancement.

If we mean significant income, you may be right. At the very least, it's a much higher standard, and a longshot to make work.

 

[superberry]

You say nature is recapturing the existing bolf course, so be sure to figure in maintenance costs for this financial adventure. You won't have a world class course if you don't have some great landscaping and clean groundskeeping.

 

[Matthew boals]

Since Ball golf didn't work out, they should try including "Foot Golf" a long with the DG course. Another possible source of income.

 

[banknwank]

For me, close and free is a big part of my choice to play dg vs ball golf. Not that I wouldn't go alittle out of my way, or pay, to play an epic course. It wouldn't be but on occasion . Leagues, annual memberships, and large events could help cover cost/expenses. A pro shop that also did online sales could be helpful. And of course, concession could be a big funds generator. I would imagine all those things were in place when it was a ball golf destination ? Turf ang greens maintenance might not be as intense of an expense for dg, but still a cost. If it was epic enough to have a few large, prestigious , events a year it might be able to cover a lot of expense through an all inclusive tourney weekends Just hard to say. Maybe some research on other world class dg destinations and what kind of events calendar they maintain in a season could give you some ideas. Pros do travel the world in this sport, and some decent time and money is spent putting on the big shows, so there is dollars to be exchanged. Does dg do pro/am tourneys where the average joe gets to play doubles with a pro? I know ball golf ears pay big $ to tee it with the pros........ Anyway , interesting idea.
In Denver area, most of the pay to play courses are in the hills with pic scenery and monster tee shots across a mountain valley. I plan on hitting a few this summer. Most of these courses are all native and don't require lawn care/ maintenance so basic course upkeep is minimal.

 

[JeremyKShort]

It would need to be a major destination to have a big pull that far away from major cities. You'd have to do something to put yourself on the map. Something as big as what Selah did to get attention. Got to be big name designer, and lots of publicity. You need other activities on the property to make it viable.

Really, you'd have to follow Selah's model to get people there. Fredericksburg is a touristy town, but you've still got to get people to come to you. You're not close enough to town to expect a big turnout from regulars. You pretty much gotta play destination disc golf.

If the property's nice enough this could likely work. And if everything else there is as nice as we'll.

 

[jtencer]

You should definitely talk to Houck. That sounds like a similar area to where his ranch is/was. I know that I drove out there from Austin a couple of times to play while I lived in Austin and that he held some regular tournaments. I also know that the property taxes out there are brutal and it can make the financial equation a tough one. You're likely to have a tough time remaining solvent if disc golf is your only income stream for the property.

I think that you can pretty safely assume that anyone who is willing to drive 70+ miles to play a course would also be willing to pay a little for the privilege. Once again, frequent tournaments would likely get a crowd out with some regularity.

 

[tallpaul]

Mr. Houck is certainly the one to speak to about this. If anyone has succeeded in the way you're hoping, it is he. Blue Ribbon has the luxury of being very near a huge hotbed disc golf city; whose participants are somewhat used to traveling just a bit for courses; and also is surrounded by other Midwest states where peeps are somewhat used to traveling a couple of times a year.

I am fairly intimate with top ten course, Rollin' Ridge; and they cover some expenses, but that's about it. The big key for most successful pay to plays is having a die hard local community; i.e. Blue Ribbon and Valla Harta Ast (not spelled right) in Madison. A local, public, course of ours is doing o.k. as well, O'Hauser Park. But, all three of these have had 25 years of developing community, that makes them work and none of them are dependent on the lodging aspect.

Sandy Point Disc Golf Ranch is another place; that is much more based on lodging revenue, here in Wisconsin, that you could check in with. I believe they make some money three or four times a year; when hosting long time traditional/annual tourneys, and otherwise, make some "make ends meet" income.

I'm "friends" with a large number of private course owners across the U.S. and can tell you that almost all of them are doing it for the love; not the money.

You probably want to speak with Mace Man as well....

*This big, long ramble, is a way of saying that it's still very unlikely for this to work; but it is getting closer to being possible and there are some pay to plays that are functioning pretty well these days...*

 

[Cgkdisc]

The way Houck and Moody dealt with the tax issue was having cattle on the property so they got a significant tax break for agricultural zoning. That's one trick to keep down costs where you can do it.

 

[tallpaul]

The one thing that the place you're speaking of seems to have very much in common with Sandy Point Disc Golf Ranch is that people will rent lodging for things other than disc golf; for big parts of the year; and you would only need to base some income from pure disc golf weekends. For Sandy Point, their place is a tourist destination, and disc golf is an added bonus that they build certain times of year around making complete disc golf income available.

 

[John Rock]

That part of TX has a lot of 85mph speed limits on the I-20. Won't take long to go 70 miles.