[Mids] One guys quest for the right stable/overstable mid and his findings.

[thatdirtykid]

I have been working on this slot a long time. I have usually been one of the guys who LOVES throwing mids off the tee, and often am throwing them when everyone else is throwing a driver.

My recent bag overhaul has left the mids less important. The FD is so easy to throw and really has encroached where I would often power mids up before, but now slower and throwing easy I am hitting my lines cleaner with it. I went back and forth between bagging random stable mids and throwing my drivers powered down, my buzzz with extra hyzer and my harp powered up thinking I had enough that a stable mid would be overlap.

Although I am known to throw some nice anhyzers and good controlled putter shots, most people would say I have a power game, with my mids especially. So keep that in mind when reading my opinions on the discs below.

This is what I wanted out of a stable to overstable mid.
Long enough to not overlap my harp significantly (350' golf line)
Stable enough to leave room for Buzzz and Comet shots, but still hold straight most of its flight with relative ease.
Forehand well
Good wind penetration (300' into the wind)


These are the discs and a description of how they fit in my tests.

Discs I didn't try because they didn't come through in my trade wants or were not available locally. Gateway Karma or Warrior. Kaxe/KaxeZ. Warship(didn't fit stable mid slot, but would be long enough and maybe fade more than a buzzz?)

Discs I tried:

Roc: DX San Marino, KC, Flat top, Star Rancho.
All great discs, I have bagged Rocs at a few times in my time playing. I like rocs, I like beaded discs.
PROS: Stable, predictable, finally with plastic options. Comfortable in my hand, I am familiar with them.
CONS: Not great in the wind. Rocs do well in wind, but are slower and seem to get carried once the wind gets under them. The speed also hurts them because I tee with a putter a ton, and without extra height, the roc doesn't close the gap between putters and my relatively long fairway drivers (FDs) well enough.

Roc3: This one I didn't give an amazing chance. I had a domey one and it needed to be muscled around a bit.
PROS: Solid fade. Predictable when powered up
CONS: Powers down very poorly. Almost glideless without much power.

Wasp I cycled Wasps in X and ProD for a long time before I went back to the buzzz. I am very comfortable with the mold, but I knew it wasn't for me in my current setup for the same resons Rocs don't fit this setup.
PROS: Very workable even in the currently only available Z plastic. Good in wind.
CONS: Not very long, plastic availability.

Shark3: This one surprised me, and was probably the first runner up for the slot in my bag.
PROS: This disc holds the most beautiful and consistent hyzers of any mid I have thrown. You put it on the line and it will sweep it perfectly to the end. Didn't matter if it was a gentle sweeper or a spike.
Good wind penetration and distance
Predictable fade and good flex shots
CONS: You have to throw FLAT if you want it to go straight. It holds hyzer lines so well that just a little hyzer imput will hold, which can put you a ways off line. Doesn't power down amazingly.
I am not sure if this would be typical at sea level or not (I am at 5000')

Pain I liked this one, but it was a little lack luster.
PROS: Great straight to fade shots, and glides a ways for how stable it finishes. This is what I expected the ROC3 to be like, this is more "faster roc" like to me. Flips up to flat easier than some discs, and flys straight well.
CONS: Good wind resistance, but not great.
Fade into the wind was unpredictable with some shots flying dead straight into the wind (good high speed stability)

Vector I had messed with the vecotor in the bag when it was released but it didn't stick.
PROS: Very predictable flex shots. It holds a anhyzer line well, but you know it will come out.
Great in the wind, despite having some dome.
CONS: Not quite enough penetration
Requires a little more OOmph to hold straight. A beat one could be a beautiful thing though.
Not a comfortable forehand grip (but forehanded well)

Sentinel I only have a low 170s one. This didn't get a fair chance because I only came across one, while the rest I had at least two different ones.
PROS: Great feeling plastic, very workable, loves holding any anhyzer lines predictably fading.
Was predictable in the wind
Longer than the Roc3 and other Rocs, but not terribly long
CONS: Touchy in the wind. Could have been the weight, which brings me to another con, availability. Not easy to come by comparatively. This flew a bit like the Pain.

Hornet This was the disc I expected to bag
PROS Stable, flys straight to fade well, good distance and good in wind
CONS Not particularly workable. Fought out of more finesse lines to much to be as controllable as I wanted.


The disc that made the bag

Verdict This one didn't stand out at first, but it always delivered and was one of my favorites through each test. The grip is good FH and BH, similar to a shark3.
PROS: Plastic availability is there for me, I do not feel the need to cycle mids anymore at this point in time.
Fast it gets there and is every bit as long as my buzzz (shark3 was there too) It even gets out there a ways into the wind, better than all other molds tested.
Predictable whether its straight to fade, tracking right with a strong finish, headwinds, powered up or down.
CONS: It will flip up slightly on sweeping power hyzers, as would most discs I tried but the shark3.

This was the basic results of my testing. Worst does not mean bad, just not as good as the rest.

Headwind Predictability
Best:
Vector, Hornet, Verdict, Shark3
Worst
Roc3, Pain, Sentinel

Headwind Distance
Best:
Verdict, Shark3, Hornet
Worst:
Roc, Wasp

Workability on flex/helix and touchier lines.
BEST:
Verdict, Wasp, Pain
WORST:
Hornet, Roc3

Distance potential
Best:
Verdict, Shark3, Vector
Worst:
Roc, Wasp, Sentinel

Hyzer angle control
Best:
Shark3 (class of its own), Verdict, Wasp, Roc
Worst:
Roc3, Hornet

Forehand Performance
Best:
Verdict, Vector, Shark3
Worst:
Roc, Sentinel

Forehand Grip
Best:
Verdict, Shark3, Hornet
Worst
Vector, Pain, Roc

Did I miss testing something I should have? Am I going to want to ditch my buzzz/comet combo and run a variety of truths now?
Anyone have questions, or want my opinion of a comparison of any two molds above? I have been messing with them and picking up extras of the ones in contention for a few months now. I will also have a few throwers up for trade as well...

 

[World Eater]

Verdict is among my favorite discs, but I gotta say you're making me want to try a Shark3 pretty bad.

 

[B-Man]

It's funny, as I was reading your post, I was thinking Verdict the whole time, then I saw that's what you picked. Last year I was looking to fill that same slot, and settled on a 169g Lucid Verdict. I haven't been able to find anything better for that slot, so I think you made the right choice.

 

[asc349]

Awesome wright up. Not sure if it has been released yet but the DD Justice looked interesting as an OS mid.

Thanks tho for the wright up, great read.

 

[cooter]

Verdict is among my favorite discs, but I gotta say you're making me want to try a Shark3 pretty bad.

The Shark3 doesn't get much love but it might be Innovas best mid besides the Roc. They are stable and fun to throw. You really have to beat them in to get some nice glide out of em but they are solid. I've thought about bagging them a few times.

The Verdict/Truth combo is super solid and covers about everything. I like how you broke it all down to categories. Now that's how you find a mid!!

 

[GripEnemy]

As someone who doesn't bag the "slot" at hand I just want to ask where the unmentioned best/worst discs are.

Headwind predictability you give 4 best and 3 worst(7/9 tested), while headwind distance you give 3 best and 2 worst (5/9). I get that not every mold you tested deserves to be mentioned every time since some are average/normal/nothing special, I just think the number of different Best and Worst discs (to you) should be done evenly throughout your mentioned criteria.



Aside from that solid post:thmbup:

 

[World Eater]

Nice. To paraphrase, "you gave me obsessive, which is cool, but I wanted obsessive compulsive."

Definitely check out a Truth if you havent. Hss buzzz with legs and similar rim to the verdict. My fluids are more stable than moonshine which is much more stable than my prime.

 

[Moonshine]

Shark3 is criminally underrated. More for me I guess

 

[Snaques]

I think you got it right with the Verdict. Based on what I've read, the Bard could've given it a good run for the money.

You could've also added Opto Mace to the list, but I doub't it would have changed the results.

PS. Props on the write up.

 

[Smigles]

my setup was comet - buzzz - wasp - drone for years. The only thing that changed was the Fuse that replaced my comet.

I really like the Roc3 as well, I'd probably bag it if I hadn't so many backup Wasps.

But really, the differences between some of the discs you listet are so small, it's the archer not the arrow.

 

[zendragon]

It's funny, as I was reading your post, I was thinking Verdict the whole time, then I saw that's what you picked. Last year I was looking to fill that same slot, and settled on a 169g Lucid Verdict. I haven't been able to find anything better for that slot, so I think you made the right choice.

I was thinking the same thing as I was reading. "Where's the Verdict?" "ok, but where's the Verdict?" I've had the prototype since it was released and it is by far my favorite stable-OS mid. I play around with other mids to fit the slot, but I always go back to it.

 

[The Last DJ]

Shark3 is criminally underrated. More for me I guess

:hfive:

That sounds about right. I might be a little biased as the Shark was my first disc purchase and the ONLY disc I used for the first six months of playing but besides being a great disc for the hyzer line, I've used the Shark3 for overhand shots and short-range rollers.

 

[Streets]

Shark3 is criminally underrated. More for me I guess

The Shark in general is, the classic one and the 3.

 

[PWaggoner]

As a roc3 user I'd like to know why you decided it wasn't a good headwind disc? What kind of throws are you attempting?

I mean if I like the roc3 already and think it does well in wind then maybe I should try the shark3. Mostly i only throw flat in the wind and choose the disc that'll leverage the wind the best I can. Say tailwind and I need a OS mid throw I'll use my straight atlas. Or headwind straight shot I'll throw the roc3. I rarely try and shape lines in the wind, maybe it's my mid choices.

 

[thatdirtykid]

As someone who doesn't bag the "slot" at hand I just want to ask where the unmentioned best/worst discs are.

Headwind predictability you give 4 best and 3 worst(7/9 tested), while headwind distance you give 3 best and 2 worst (5/9). I get that not every mold you tested deserves to be mentioned every time since some are average/normal/nothing special, I just think the number of different Best and Worst discs (to you) should be done evenly throughout your mentioned criteria.



Aside from that solid post:thmbup:

I thought about that but the issue was, the discs I considered Best had to stand out in that regard, and Worst (again, worst not meaning bad at the shot as much as not as good).

The gap between Best and Worst is not very large in a lot of cases, and the discs in the middle were all fine, in most cases the discs labled the worst were fine. I didn't get out the GPS and measure throws, take notes, and not all discs got 1000 plus throws for me to work out the quirks of each mold. It would be very hard to rate them all, but it was easy to pick out a few stand outs.

For instance, it wouldnt be fair to mention the Vector with the Roc3 and Hornet for being harder to predict hyzer angle. It was less predictable on hyzers (some time fading off earlier than expected) when the Roc3 (stood up to flat or didnt fade sometimes, and fell out of the air others) or hornet (which is just a tick more overstable than it needs to be for this slot) when the vector was better than those on that shot, but not as good as the rest.

I think you got it right with the Verdict. Based on what I've read, the Bard could've given it a good run for the money.

You could've also added Opto Mace to the list, but I doub't it would have changed the results.

PS. Props on the write up.

Thanks,
I actually have a pair of Bards (TP and VIP) on the way. I have heard they have a less dumpy fade but are just as stable as the Verdict. Handling them in the store yesterday I don't love the grip and it seems by shape that it may rely more on glide for distance, if it is as long as the Verdict. I will give the TP (used a few tosses) and if I like it try the VIP (new). I would be shocked it it clicks like the verdict has begun to.
The Mace, as well as the MD3 could have made the list, but I was trying to buy new as little as possible and trade for what I could. I did throw a friends mace a couple times (literally into a field and back) and feel like it was between the Roc3 and Pain.

As a roc3 user I'd like to know why you decided it wasn't a good headwind disc? What kind of throws are you attempting?

I mean if I like the roc3 already and think it does well in wind then maybe I should try the shark3. Mostly i only throw flat in the wind and choose the disc that'll leverage the wind the best I can. Say tailwind and I need a OS mid throw I'll use my straight atlas. Or headwind straight shot I'll throw the roc3. I rarely try and shape lines in the wind, maybe it's my mid choices.

They all did fine in the wind, the worst not meaning the disc is bad for the shot, it just didn't necessarily keep up with the others.

The roc3 didn't penetrate into the wind as well as some of the others. It was a stable disc, but once turned into the wind it got pushed around a bit. When there was a headwind, DX San Marino Rocs and KC Pros were just as long as the roc3 The others were more predictable. Like I said, the Roc3 didn't get a very fair chance because the small sample size. A flat top, although less stable probably would have penetrated the wind better.

 

[thatdirtykid]

But really, the differences between some of the discs you listet are so small, it's the archer not the arrow.

This is very true, but the archer probably does have preference to weight/length of arrows and bow, even if they can shoot them all straight.

And to be honest any one of these discs could have filled the slot, and I would have learned to play with them just fine. A lot of it just came to feel and how confident one disc over the other made me feel.

 

[ODRB]

What kind of Sentinel did you use? Makes a BIG difference.

Great writeup. Thanks.

 

[Moonshine]

The Shark in general is, the classic one and the 3.

Definitely. I have a few nice DX ones that I throw as well. Would love to pick up some champs at some point.

 

[thatdirtykid]

What kind of Sentinel did you use? Makes a BIG difference.

Great writeup. Thanks.

I tried to edit to add plastic and weights but was too slow.

Late run Sparkle Q. I used to throw the CE/Opaque Q Sentinels, they were beef cakes. I liked it, I would have been more likely to give it a better chance if I could find them easier.

 

[ODRB]

I tried to edit to add plastic and weights but was too slow.

Late run Sparkle Q. I used to throw the CE/Opaque Q Sentinels, they were beef cakes. I liked it, I would have been more likely to give it a better chance if I could find them easier.

You still got that CE? I'm ALWAYS buying those.