Par Talk

[Olorin]

Houston, we have a par problem... Maybe?

Somewhere in the bowels, Steve gave a list of the advantages of having accurate par. It's a nice summation.

Or Olorin will show up, and this will become a long thread.

I'm finally showing up... replying to when it was merely post 1596...

See Why Disc Golf needs consistent par standards

Now I guess this thread will get long...

 

[Steve West]

Discraft's Green Mountain Championship

Par for the Brewster Ridge course was perfect – for the FPO division. Even par was rated 969 and 956.

For MPO, par was at least 3 too high. Even par was rated 959 and 956.

Holes #3, #6, and #17 definitely had enough birdies (for 1000-rated players) to be lower par, and a lot of other holes had lots of birdies – almost enough to qualify for lower pars on those holes. (See all the gold bars that reach almost all the way down to the next lower integer.) So, if pars on #3, #6, and #17 were lowered, par would only have been rated 986 and 983.

If I were TD for the next big event here, I would set par at 57 by lowering par on holes #17, #8 and #11. Then toughen up #3 and especially #6 which are par 2s now.

 

[Steve West]

Discraft's Green Mountain Championship

Par for Fox Run was just right, in total, for FPO. Holes #5 and #13 should swap pars. An even par round was rated 961 and 956.

For MPO (who played a different layout), there were enough birdies on 5 holes to qualify for a lower par. Three of these were actually par 2s. So, I'd at least change par on #1 and #16 from 4 down to 3, which would raise the rating for even par up to 996 and 995. Then, look at whether #6, #10 and #17 are cool enough to survive as par 2s.

 

[2naphish]

This has been debated ad nauseam. Nothing says you can't have a par 2 but personal taste. Ideally, the hole would be adjusted, not par.

par is established when an expert golfer drives and 2 putts. there is no par 2.

 

[lyleoross]

par is established when an expert golfer drives and 2 putts. there is no par 2.

Please show me the written rule that says par can't be 2? Your quoting the PDGA def, but they blew it. That "rule" is a rule of thumb calculation used to determine par in BG. Someone got lazy and wrote it as our definition of par.

The real definition of par is what an expert player is expected to get on a hole. Now, we might decide to stick with a BG rule of thumb as our official rule for par, but it makes us look stupid. Hey look, players averaged 2.2 throws on this hole, why do you guys call it par 3? As I wrote, the hole should be fixed to play something closer to par 3.

 

[Steve West]

par is established when an expert golfer drives and 2 putts. there is no par 2.

Hmmm, I don't see "putt" in the definition.

But say it was, what if no drive was needed to start putting? What's par then?

 

[DavidSauls]

Please show me the written rule that says par can't be 2? Your quoting the PDGA def, but they blew it. That "rule" is a rule of thumb calculation used to determine par in BG. Someone got lazy and wrote it as our definition of par.

The real definition of par is what an expert player is expected to get on a hole. Now, we might decide to stick with a BG rule of thumb as our official rule for par, but it makes us look stupid. Hey look, players averaged 2.2 throws on this hole, why do you guys call it par 3? As I wrote, the hole should be fixed to play something closer to par 3.

Actually, misquoting the rule.

 

[PMantle]

But say it was, what if no drive was needed to start putting? What's par then?

That's not a thing.

 

[DavidSauls]

No, but there certainly are a lot of holes that people play with just a putter, from beginning to end.

Don't see that very often in golf.

But, hey, maybe they're different games?

Funny, but despite their similarities in name and general concept, and the fact that disc golf derived from golf, the idea that they're different games is, mostly, noncontroversial. There are many dozens, probably even hundreds, of golf rules and design concepts and terminology and customs that don't apply to disc golf---either aren't applied literally, or aren't applied at all. You could easily go through golf rules and say "We don't do this" or "This doesn't apply to us" and the only reply you'd get would be, "Of course not". Yet, for some aspects---including par and particularly the idea of 2 putts on a designated green, but others as well---it seems to be blasphemy to tailor them to our game.

 

[Steve West]

I'll explain that:

Fundamentally, disc golfers want the toughest possible courses and then to shred those courses with ease.

Inflated par (let's add one more putt than an expert would expect!) lets us feel like we have both.

Setting par correctly takes away our free lunch. Nothing causes louder or more sustained whining than taking away something people have been getting without earning it.

 

[Pedals]

I used to play ball golf for years and got down to an 8 handicap. I've been playing disc golf for three months now and I'm pushing close to par at a difficult 18 hole course in Virginia. To me it looks like par is only so easy because putting is so much easier than in ball golf.

Personally I think the catchers are way to large. Anthing within 15 to 20ft is nearly a guaranteed make if you throw it straight. In ball golf a 5ft putt is nerve wracking with having to judge how the ball is going to roll along with a target that isn't much larger than the ball itself. Disc golf putting is a little more pure because you don't have rolling on grass as a variable but with the large baskets its just to easy.

I'm not sure if catchers should be much more narrow but definitely not as tall from basket to the top of the chains. I'm seriously thinking half the height they are now would be nice to try.

 

[Steve West]

..To me it looks like par is only so easy because putting is so much easier than in ball golf.
...

...combined with the mistake of applying the ball golf definition of par to disc golf. That explains a lot of the easiness of disc golf par.

Another reason is that disc golf par is not always set with experts in mind; there are a lot of recreational pars on tee signs.

 

[DavidSauls]

...combined with the mistake of applying the ball golf definition of par to disc golf. That explains a lot of the easiness of disc golf par.
.

Following that digression a little further.....Wouldn't putting being "too easy" be better defined by the number of putts that are not in doubt---the range from which players almost always make them, and the percentage of our shots that are in that range?

I'm not sure what that distance is, in golf or disc golf, but if a more difficult target were desired, it might be this definition---not the percentage from 10 meters or the distance players often hole out---that would justify it.

 

[PMantle]

Setting par correctly takes away our free lunch. Nothing causes louder or more sustained whining than taking away something people have been getting without earning it.

Is someone against setting par correctly?

 

[New013]

They might effectively be par 2s but they shouldn't be for that type of tournament. Hopefully the people in charge find a way to create more difficulty on those holes before worlds.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Last time i checked steve has done like 1000x the DD of any of us so there is that.

I am allllllllllll about the par 2 movement and lets make disc golf pars great again.

Its really not that hard.. If you cant throw a good shot and putt out welp? Im no pro and have 2'd one of these holes from said designer so he isnt nutz like our squirrels.

 

[Steve West]

They might effectively be par 2s but they shouldn't be for that type of tournament. Hopefully the people in charge find a way to create more difficulty on those holes before worlds.

Wouldn't one way to do that be to actually label them par 2? To increase the pressure of making the 2.

But, yeah, some of them are too easy no matter the par.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

::shakes fist in anger for no easy birdie::

 

[PMantle]

I used to play ball golf for years and got down to an 8 handicap. I've been playing disc golf for three months now and I'm pushing close to par at a difficult 18 hole course in Virginia. To me it looks like par is only so easy because putting is so much easier than in ball golf.

It's that plus the lack of multiple tee boxes. The muni I play has 5 boxes on each hole. I am going to score very differently from black as opposed to red. If disc golf courses were built like that, these discussions would be shorter.

 

[Pedals]

It's that plus the lack of multiple tee boxes. The muni I play has 5 boxes on each hole. I am going to score very differently from black as opposed to red. If disc golf courses were built like that, these discussions would be shorter.

Definitely agree with that! Both of my local courses have a two tee locations and two catcher locations on each hole. The short tee / long tee kind of equates to the womens vs mens tee for ball golf but theres no "black" tees to choose from. I would not be anywhere near par from another set of tees.

I think there is a lot more that can be done to protect holes in disc golf. For ball golf on a raised green they'll cut the grass short around the green. This way if you miss your landing zone on the green it will just roll off leaving you with a long pitch back onto the green instead of putting from the fringe. Same can be done in disk golf with the catcher location just in front of a steep drop off. If your putt or approach goes long then you have a very long up hill shot to make for birdie. Clear the trees and brush behind the hole to so nothing will stop the disk.

I'm not opposed to there being par 2s in disc golf. There are definitly some holes in Charlottesville, VA's 9 hole course that should be considered par 2. Different par for pro tournaments also makes a lot of sense. For ball golf some holes are normally classified as par 5 but its rated par 4 during a PGA weekend.