Hampstead
* Ace Member *
Trolls gonna troll
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- Thread starter roblee
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Lol. If I've said it once, I've said it a million times. Transitioning from one gender to another is an incredibly difficult process. Nobody is going to do that solely because they think they will be in a better position to win disc golf tournaments. No one who is not experiencing gender dysphoria is throwing in an MPO field thinking "I just need to fully commit to playing FPO" as a reason to transition. It's laughable.
Could a future dominant FPO player be transgender? Sure. Would that person have transitioned specifically to be a dominant FPO player? Not on your life.
HB2017
Bogey Member
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- Feb 2, 2022
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- 61
I see you're having some trouble dealing with dissenting opinion. Look, I swear on all things sacred (weed, abortion) that nothing would make me happier than transwomyn taking the FPO tour by storm in 2023. What's the hold up? My stepson was saying some very problematic things the other day and I took great pains in explaining to him the importance of transgender folks being able to play disc golf for prize money. Such an obvious thing but I'll never stop speaking truth to power.
What dissenting opinion is that exactly?
gingerandhoney
Birdie Member
So, HB2017, what you're basically saying is, instead of the gotten-old-quickly "What if Paul McBeth said he was a woman and started playing FPO?" *, "what if Jeremy Koling said he was a woman and started playing FPO?" *
Coming out as trangender for athletic gain - which is what you are suggesting - is beyond outrageously transphobic.
* = it is disturning to see how in these whataboutisms the person transitioning is structurally misgendered, which only serves to further "other" and "disrespect" transgender people and their real life struggles *because of* (not while) being transgender
Next to completely ignoring the fact that in a best case scenario, said player accepting themselves as transgender, and said player being reclassified and now-eligible to compete in gender-based divisions, it'll easily take 24+ months for that to occur.
It is not a thing that one decides today, and tomorrow it is confirmed and fixed. So leave the "what if Paul decided...." trope.
Under the current rules (regardless of the country one lives in),
assuming it is legally allowed to transition (in the USA this is rapidly being disallowed, starting with children),
and with the current waiting lists in health care (In Europe this is currently looking more and more like 24+ months just to be seen for therapy, which is the first hurdle that needs to be taken before any medical reatment could even take place),
and assuming that the person transition is even able to finance ** all of this,
said reclassificiation will very easily take 24+ months (12+ months of which are already baked into the current PDGA Transgender Policy).
** = In the USA, health care and health insurance is seen not as a right, but as a privilege, so if that person in transition is not insured (usually a low-income wage or being unemployed being the cause of not being insured; which confirms the assumption that health insurance is elitist in the USA), even just a simple set of bloodworks being $1000+ is nearly impossible to afford.
Therapy, hormone replacement therapy, gender affirming surgery (easily $20k+ in the USA), are not even taken into account then.
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Personal anecdote: between August 2016 when I accepted myself as being transgender, and me being re-classified to be eligible to compete in gender-based divisions in April 2019, 31 (!!!) months passed, and that is considered a quick transition by any standard!
That is because:
I "only" had a 6 month waitlist before being allowed to start diagnostic therapy,
and "only" 3 months of waitinglist for hormone replacement therapy start,
and did some meticulous planning (yay for being a music industry tour manager in real life) prior to gender-affirming surgery making for having to "only" wait 14 days after being eligible for that surgery (I had started planning for it, and got placed on that waitlist 7 months prior to getting my surgery).
Coming out as trangender for athletic gain - which is what you are suggesting - is beyond outrageously transphobic.
* = it is disturning to see how in these whataboutisms the person transitioning is structurally misgendered, which only serves to further "other" and "disrespect" transgender people and their real life struggles *because of* (not while) being transgender
Next to completely ignoring the fact that in a best case scenario, said player accepting themselves as transgender, and said player being reclassified and now-eligible to compete in gender-based divisions, it'll easily take 24+ months for that to occur.
It is not a thing that one decides today, and tomorrow it is confirmed and fixed. So leave the "what if Paul decided...." trope.
Under the current rules (regardless of the country one lives in),
assuming it is legally allowed to transition (in the USA this is rapidly being disallowed, starting with children),
and with the current waiting lists in health care (In Europe this is currently looking more and more like 24+ months just to be seen for therapy, which is the first hurdle that needs to be taken before any medical reatment could even take place),
and assuming that the person transition is even able to finance ** all of this,
said reclassificiation will very easily take 24+ months (12+ months of which are already baked into the current PDGA Transgender Policy).
** = In the USA, health care and health insurance is seen not as a right, but as a privilege, so if that person in transition is not insured (usually a low-income wage or being unemployed being the cause of not being insured; which confirms the assumption that health insurance is elitist in the USA), even just a simple set of bloodworks being $1000+ is nearly impossible to afford.
Therapy, hormone replacement therapy, gender affirming surgery (easily $20k+ in the USA), are not even taken into account then.
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Personal anecdote: between August 2016 when I accepted myself as being transgender, and me being re-classified to be eligible to compete in gender-based divisions in April 2019, 31 (!!!) months passed, and that is considered a quick transition by any standard!
That is because:
I "only" had a 6 month waitlist before being allowed to start diagnostic therapy,
and "only" 3 months of waitinglist for hormone replacement therapy start,
and did some meticulous planning (yay for being a music industry tour manager in real life) prior to gender-affirming surgery making for having to "only" wait 14 days after being eligible for that surgery (I had started planning for it, and got placed on that waitlist 7 months prior to getting my surgery).
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gingerandhoney
Birdie Member
Addition to the personal anecdote:
my case being an open-and-shut case of gender dysphoria (this is the case for most people asking for medical help with their transition because of the gender dysphoria they experience, *because of (not despite) the high hurdles to climb prior to that)
my case being an open-and-shut case of gender dysphoria (this is the case for most people asking for medical help with their transition because of the gender dysphoria they experience, *because of (not despite) the high hurdles to climb prior to that)
Dcinmd
Double Eagle Member
Thank you for braving the cold rain at the Loco Open and spotting for us in those conditions. :thmbup:
In your future scads of men will transition to try to win FPO events in disc golf? Your attempts at humor, are thinly veiled pronouncements of fear and hate....nothing more. Nothing you have posted makes any sense, at all. They are declarations of ignorance of this entire topic.
If you fear people who are different than you, it is OK. We all have fears, and the unknown is a primary driver of this fear. Education and compassion is the vaccine for this fear. Study, read, learn and find compassion for those different than you. Try to remember, they see you as different. (Pro tip.......we are all different)
opcorn:Completely unrelated note, but it appears that the lead poisoning of previous generations is worse than originally thought.
Eh, I'm sure seed oils/micro plastics/pesticides/GMOs/birth control/cell phones/MRNA/Bluetooth/who knows what are poisoning us in their own ways. It all comes out in the wash.
- Joined
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Don't forget bicycle helmets...
A couple of things....
A. The "Science Group" does not cite any of their work. It looks like ru4por beat me to it - but if you actually take the time to read through the FINA documentation they do not cite a single thing to provide the opportunity to rebut their points.
B. The bolded part that you did not say but quoted from FINA about legacy effects - What about the legacy effects of their genetic expression demonstrated by athletes like Abby Steiner? Serena Williams? Whether you're born expressing the same sexual characteristics externally as you are neurologically, top level athletes are going to have expressed their physicality throughout their development in a way that 99% of their field is not going to be able to overcome.
The problem with these papers is that these papers are heavily focused on comparing the average woman to a woman post-transition. The average male has a strength comparable, depending on the study, to a female in the top 7.5% to 5% of all females. The comparison should be between the strength of women post-transition and women born with female external sexual characteristics in the top 7.5% to 5%. This is not problematic unless your perspective is that these women are inherently immoral cheaters looking for advantages. This is because, the fact is, that all women are not born equal in terms of their athletic potential. The advantages of genetic expression that occur as a result of various influences are very real within the population of women before we even consider women post-transition. This is just another example of that. It is a totally unfair standard to apply to them, given the BROAD differences we already see in the population of women before we consider transitioned people at all.
One day we might wind up with a post-transition woman at the top of the sport in FPO. It is possible. And the response to that should be - a woman who is in the top 5-10% of all women physically, by virtue of her physical advantages growing up, can also wind up at the top of the sport.
1. You don't seem to understand what statistical impossibilities are. A statistical impossibility is generally referred to as something that is far beyond what would apply to the possibility of a post-transition woman winning a World Title. Statistical impossibility is getting down to the point of twenty to thirty decimal places.
2. You represent your argument by sensationalizing the accomplishments of Nova and Natalie. This tells me everything about your objectivity on this matter. You are intentionally twisting the most easily refutable facts here Natalie Ryan is not finishing consistently top 10, in fact less than half of the time on tour in the last few years. Nova is not a 5x world champion. The fact that you took the easiest part of the conversation, outlining the accomplishments of the people we have read the most about in disc golf at the center of this, and chose to outright lie about how much they've done demonstrates you do not want to have an adult conversation about this.
No, parts of what compose them have elements in common with what we traditionally consider "male." And other parts of what compose them have elements in common with what we traditionally consider "female." Actual physical parts of their bodies from birth are female. You are overly obsessed with some parts of their physical being over other parts of their physical being. Even within people with a clear-cut XX or XY chromosomal makeup - there are shades of gray throughout their phenotypic presentation of characteristics, where those with an XX makeup present in many ways as extremely masculine, and those with an XY makeup present in many ways as extremely feminine - without necessarily being transgender, and including the way their bodies produce testosterone. The ways in which their bodies function result from vagaries in their genetic makeup that we have continued to identify as we have advanced microscopy beyond the pre-1960s space you seem to occupy. As I noted above - the phenotypic presentation of their genetics is a huge part of what gives athletes like Abby Steiner or Serena Williams their advantages. What we traditionally consider "masculine" or "feminine" is all phenotypic expression, parts of their genes have more in common with what we traditionally consider men. We don't argue against their participation. But we argue against the participation of other women, like Nova or Natalie, based on their genes being arbitrarily more in common with men - even though they don't even present nearly as strongly as other women at the top of the athletics world.
That is a debate that should have been settled on the conclusion of "yes, someone can definitely be misgendered" as soon as microscopy advanced to the point that we could make out more than the general X/Y shape of chromosomes. Which is a place we arrived at decades ago.
It is exactly as fair as Sydney McLaughlin receiving scholarships and money for the way her phenotypic expression led to advantages over the rest of the competing female track and field population. You are expressing an observation of unfairness in the way Nova or Natalie express their genetics, while arbitrarily ignoring so so so many others.
The son of former NFL DLineman Tracy Rocker, pitcher Kumar Rocker, was chosen third in the Major League Baseball draft yesterday. Kumar grew up being screamed at like he was an adult by angry parents who didn't want their kids going up against him, even when he played UP divisions against OLDER competition. If those parents had their way - Kumar Rocker would not currently be preparing for a Major League career, he wouldn't have even had a chance to experience competitive baseball as a youth. This stupid "moms are very upset" argument has absolutely no bearing on anything being discussed here, aside from being an example of how parents can be just as ridiculous as any random person on the internet.chris deitzel said:
As I hit post 200 I'm running out of energy.... so I'll hit submit. I got dragged into this thread after seeing the wife of the bigot candidate in the trash bin. Wish I'd never opened it, so much ridiculousness in this thread....
Holistically, we aren't necessarily anomalies - but each of us holistically is made up of a massive number of genetic/phenotypic characteristics, each of which may or may not be anomalous relative to the rest of the population. The craziest anomaly of all may be the person who has absolutely no characteristics which are anomalous. So, depending on what characteristic you're referring to - every given person is likely anomalous.
Based on reading the linked descriptions, checking out the videos, and then supported by their AMAs here lately - I just voted Laura Nagtegaal and Phil Mills.
I agree to a certain point. However my concern is the glibness with which the original use of the word anomaly was used in this thread. It is a slippery slope to define us all as anomalies vs defining trans people, which is what this thread is ostensibly about ,as anomalies. Different does not equate to anomalous. That is all I am saying.
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I disagree. We're making a huge deal of people being trans, but that's really just another physical anomaly - one of many many many. Why isn't anyone up in arms over the unfair and unearned advantage Climo had relative his competition, being a 6'2 guy with a 6'8 wingspan? He's about three standard deviations from the norm - as big of an "anomaly" as any trans person.
There are so many ways we're anomalous, and often in ways that provide athletic advantages. If you looked at everyone from Mia Hamm to Sheryl Swoops to Annika Sorenstam you'd find anomalous expressions of their genetics that are on level with what women who have transitioned possess as a result of their own maturing process as human beings.
That there are ways in which transitioned people are anomalous should not be any more significant than any of that.
This is going down a rabbit hole that was already addressed a few pages up.
Definitions matter and if we aren't defining the word anomalous the same way it is hard to have a meaningful conversation.
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